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Author Topic: indo-european migrations to Sardinia?  (Read 548 times)
princenuadha
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« on: July 09, 2012, 11:25:39 PM »

Have there been "significant' migrations to Sardinia which were likely indo-European? One strong possibility I can think of is Bell Beaker (or its brother), but I don't know the extent of the migration.

The reason I'm curious about this is because dienekes has been making profound statements on the spread of indo-European which hinges on a "component" which ironically is completely absent in IE speaking Sardinia.

I have a suspicion that many components aren't actually "real" or can't be taken as some discrete element of ancestry that is preserved for thousands of years, especially when each admixture run produces a different/somewhat arbitrary pattern of components. I wonder if the "West Asian" of k7b is especially low in non_IE populations of Europe, along with some IE populations of Europe too, because of drift as opposed to a quick admixture event.
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rms2
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« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2012, 07:20:49 AM »

I understand your concerns about the identification of the West_Asia autosomal component with the Indo-Europeans. I find it interesting, and something to consider, but I also regard autosomal dna as very tricky, since it is subject to recombination and the laws of dominance and recession. But I am far from an expert on the subject and so am dependent, at least to some extent, on what others with more expertise have to say.

I am also not an expert on Sardinian history and prehistory, but from what little I have read on the subject, it would seem to me the biggest IE impact on Sardinia came from the Romans, and that would have been an impact much removed from whomever the original purveyors of Indo-European were. The fact that Sardinians currently speak IE languages doesn't necessarily mean that those who brought IE to Sardinia altered the genetic make-up of the island that much.

I know that Sardinia is fairly unique in having the highest frequency of y-haplogroup I-M26 anywhere in the world (I think it's around 40%). I-M26 is also found among the Basques, and some scholars have claimed to see a connection between what is known of ancient Nuragic (the early, non-IE language of Sardinia) and Euskara.

Coon thought Sardinia was settled during the Neolithic and that subsequent population movements had little effect on its people.

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-XI16.htm

The following is from Chapter XI, Section 16, of his book, The Races of Europe.

Quote from: Carleton Coon
Sardinia and Corsica were peopled at the beginning of the Neolithic by a race of short-statured, dolichocephalic, low-vaulted, brunet Mediterraneans, coming probably from several quarters, including the adjacent European coasts, North Africa, and the eastern Mediterranean. Subsequent immigrations of other Mediterranean peoples have affected the racial composition of these islands but little.

Just the same, Sardinia has a fair amount of y-haplogroup R-U152, especially in the northern part of the island, and one would think that would reflect some Indo-European genetic impact, probably mostly Italic.

http://u152.org/
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Jean M
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« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2012, 10:42:42 AM »

I have a suspicion that many components aren't actually "real" or can't be taken as some discrete element of ancestry that is preserved for thousands of years,

Agreed. The number of components is simply dictated by the software user. They are artifacts of the method. The method is useful in so far as it allows us to detect genetically broad-based similarities between populations, but we can't say how they came about.

I don't despair of getting any sense out of full genomes from ancient DNA though. So far they have supported the deductions from ancient mtDNA and Y-DNA. My beef with this idea of Dienekes is that he is running counter to said results from ancient mtDNA and Y-DNA. It doesn't make sense.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 10:46:27 AM by Jean M » Logged
Arch Y.
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« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2012, 03:32:55 AM »

Have there been "significant' migrations to Sardinia which were likely indo-European? One strong possibility I can think of is Bell Beaker (or its brother), but I don't know the extent of the migration.

The reason I'm curious about this is because dienekes has been making profound statements on the spread of indo-European which hinges on a "component" which ironically is completely absent in IE speaking Sardinia.

I have a suspicion that many components aren't actually "real" or can't be taken as some discrete element of ancestry that is preserved for thousands of years, especially when each admixture run produces a different/somewhat arbitrary pattern of components. I wonder if the "West Asian" of k7b is especially low in non_IE populations of Europe, along with some IE populations of Europe too, because of drift as opposed to a quick admixture event.

Maybe not significant migrations and I would absolutely have no doubt that some sort of Late Bronze Age maritime network brought R1b to Sardinia. Just going over some research about Bronze Age shipwrecks found near Troy got me thinking of all the Bronze Age shipwrecks found in Britain that contain artifacts from distant lands. I'm a firm believer that the sea is a faster mode of transport for colonization and subsequent expansion. Though some colonies never expand much, subsequently reducing the genetic contribution to the region.  I also remember some years ago how Sardinia was some sort of "No R1b" zone, with "HG I only" membership criteria--that is no longer the case. Also, I really doubt R1b in Sardinia is attributed to the Romans. My bet is on the Etruscans! Err, I mean Bronze Age maritime networks perhaps linked as far away as NW Anatolia.

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