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Author Topic: the need to help fund non-personal continental L21 testing  (Read 4699 times)
alan trowel hands.
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« on: September 30, 2009, 07:56:01 AM »

Continental L21 testing is still far too thinly spread,  In no part of the continent is L21 or deep clade R1b testing on a really satisfactory scale, probably the German Rhineland being the best of the bunch where migratory patterns to America has meant the area is unusually well sampled and deep clade tested.  Interestingly, in this one area where R1b clade testing is reasonable, cross comparison of the various project maps seems to indicate that L21 is the most common form of R1b.  Next door, France must be the most under-sampled of the large countries in western Europe.  However, despite this, from the inception of L21 testing, I have noticed that France has a very high % L21 hit rate.  This rate has been maintained during a burst of recent testing  and L21 may well be the modal clade there, at least in the northern half.  This is rarely commented on but would make L21 more common in France than England.  Looking into this in more detail through greater testing is a priority.  As the European map slowly fills up, it seem very unlikely that L21 originated in the isles.  If correct, all isles L21 people have a pre-isles continental phase to their ancestral story and journey. 

Clarifying L21's pre-isles story will only be possible if L21 people in general and especially some of the many isles ancestry L21 people who make up a large percentage of people in this hobby contribute even a little towards non-personal testing of L21 in Europe outside the isles.  It is pretty clear to me now that a decent sample of L21 from the (non-isles) European continent will not be obtained any time soon by self funded personal testing by people whose ancestry lies there or still live there.  Using only this approach, progress in working out clade prevalence and distribution outside the isles is excruciatingly slow and at this rate might take many many years to reach a useful level.       

One way people could help on this would be by contributing (even a little) to the FTDNA R-L21 Plus project.  I am not in any way involved in the project or its running but I can really see the value in its work, I have donated a little myself and followed it with interest.  Contributing was simple enough.  This link should take you to the project page http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L21/default.aspx  Otherwise I am sure you can go through the FTDNA website and look for the same page.  Once on the R-L21 plus project's page, the donations section 'contribute to the surname projects general fund' appeared on the left hand side.  When I clicked it, the donations page came up.  Within the donations page there were a couple of drop-down lists.  To contribute to L21 research I selected the letter R from the drop down menu box.  Then in the box to the right of it appeared a list of all projects starting with R.   This list includes the option of selecting 'R-L21 plus' as the project you wish your donation to go to.  You have to be careful you do not accidentally select the other L21 orientated projects listed beside it.   In the comments box, writing something like 'For continental L21 testing' appears to ensure that the funds are used for this purpose by those who run the project.  Then I just followed the payment option instructions.  There are so many L21 people that if a good proportion of us donated even a very modest sum then a big jump in our understanding of continental L21 distribution could be achieved. 


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rms2
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« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2009, 03:06:51 PM »

Amen! I would send out a bulk email to all project members asking for donations, but I figure the members don't want bulk emails from me asking for their money.

But it doesn't hurt to do it here!

If we all just kicked in $5 or $10 - or, heck, even just one dollar apiece! - we could accomplish a lot.

What we need is more continental testing, and our best chance of getting it is if we offer to pay for it.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2009, 03:20:03 PM »

Amen! I would send out a bulk email to all project members asking for donations, but I figure the members don't want bulk emails from me asking for their money.

But it doesn't hurt to do it here!

If we all just kicked in $5 or $10 - or, heck, even just one dollar apiece! - we could accomplish a lot.

What we need is more continental testing, and our best chance of getting it is if we offer to pay for it.
Do we have a target group already identified to test?  Are we trying to just test one specific part of France?   France and Germany?   Benelux?
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2009, 04:01:41 PM »

I would help fund a joint Franco-Benelux effort.
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rms2
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« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2009, 06:36:19 PM »

I would help fund a joint Franco-Benelux effort.

You can specify what you want your money to go for. Right now, with what little money we have, we are focusing on France and Belgium . . . for, like, two tests!

We have one Belgian (Barbier) lined up and in the "L21 Pending" category. I am looking for a suitable second candidate.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2009, 07:54:58 PM »

I think the only consideration is that while funds remain slim, its best ot pick a stidy area where there might be a reasonable chance of some hits.  France needed a little more attention than most due to a void in testing but it was also the motherload in terms of L21 hits,  I really cannot see another country having as much of a hit rate.  Maybe the odd region of other countries but not nationally.  

I suspect that continental L21 is strongest in northern France and souht/west Germany then perhaps reasonable showings in Belgium, south Holland, Luxemburg and Switzerland which together formed the main block of Gaulish lands.  I believe that L21 was common among the Gauls.  

Beyond that, I think the narrow band leading through Austria, the Czech/Slovak and beyond formed a sort of eastern tail of the old main Gaiulish block and I think some L21 would be found there although the hit rate may drop.  

I understand that there is a reasonable probablility of weeding out S21 by STRs as long as there is a reasonable amount of markers.  That would leave S116 and S28 as the main non-L21 clades that might lead ot negarive tests.  I suppose our inability to distinguish L21 from S29 by STRs makes testing in the S28 hotspot around the Alps a little more risky.        
« Last Edit: September 30, 2009, 07:55:15 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
NealtheRed
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« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2009, 09:31:36 PM »

I would like to start with Belgium. There is L21 on both sides of that country.

What is even more interesting to me is that even though U106 appears to be the dominant clade in the Netherlands and northern Germany, Scandinavia has more L21 than both. Plus, P312 outrepresents U106 in virtually every Scandinavian country other than Denmark. How does THAT happen? Are there northern Germans who aren't U106 that haven't been deep SNP tested?
« Last Edit: September 30, 2009, 09:33:20 PM by NealtheRed » Logged

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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2009, 10:54:22 PM »

It is important to get more continental testing done.  It won't happen unless those who care take the initiative.  Relative to the cost of a meal out, or a pair of shoes, or whatever, this is inexpensive.

I went to     http://www.familytreedna.com/group-general-fund-contribution.aspx
After selecting the first letter, "R", for haplogroup R that L21 is in.

I did have a little trouble finding the correct project in the project selection box.   I discovered that FTDNA's programming ignores a "-" (dash) so "R-L21Plus" is sorted in order as "RL21Plus".    I found it about half way down right after the "Ri"'s (i.e. "Rivers", "Rix"), about right where you'd except "Rl"'s (RL's) to be.

I paid thru Paypal and that works fine with your identity/account # protected.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2009, 10:55:06 PM by Mike » Logged

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rms2
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« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2009, 07:19:52 AM »

It is important to get more continental testing done.  It won't happen unless those who care take the initiative.  Relative to the cost of a meal out, or a pair of shoes, or whatever, this is inexpensive.

I went to     http://www.familytreedna.com/group-general-fund-contribution.aspx
After selecting the first letter, "R", for haplogroup R that L21 is in.

I did have a little trouble finding the correct project in the project selection box.   I discovered that FTDNA's programming ignores a "-" (dash) so "R-L21Plus" is sorted in order as "RL21Plus".    I found it about half way down right after the "Ri"'s (i.e. "Rivers", "Rix"), about right where you'd except "Rl"'s (RL's) to be.

I paid thru Paypal and that works fine with your identity/account # protected.

Thanks, Mike!

We have enough for six more tests now, but I hope we get still more contributions. Six tests are not that many when we are trying to find out where L21 probably originated.
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rms2
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« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2009, 07:29:43 AM »

Just to update everyone, here is what we have in the "L21 Pending" category in terms of continentals awaiting L21 results. Keep in mind that some of these guys paid for their own tests, we did not pay for all of them.

1. Barbier - Belgium
2. Beer - Switzerland
3. Conrardy - Luxembourg
4. Dupuis - France
5. Goblirsch - Czech Republic
6. Hugenholtz - Germany
7. Lemaire - France
8. Londry - France

Results for Goblirsch, Lemaire and Londry are actually overdue. The due dates for the others are still a bit distant.

I cannot guarantee that all of these men are L21+, but I hope they are. It's really tough to pick out an L21 haplotype unless it 1) belongs to some pretty obvious L21+ cluster like the "Niall of the Nine Hostages" thing or the Scots Modal or 2) it has some very close, high resolution matches who are already known to be L21+.
 
None of these gentlemen really qualifies for 1 or 2 above.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2009, 07:45:41 AM by rms2 » Logged

NealtheRed
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« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2009, 09:01:14 AM »

I'm looking forward to the Luxembourg, Belgium and Czech results. Once I figure out my budget here, I'm gonna put some funds towards the research.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2009, 09:04:06 AM »

I would like to start with Belgium. There is L21 on both sides of that country.
What is even more interesting to me is that even though U106 appears to be the dominant clade in the Netherlands and northern Germany, Scandinavia has more L21 than both. Plus, P312 outrepresents U106 in virtually every Scandinavian country other than Denmark. How does THAT happen? Are there northern Germans who aren't U106 that haven't been deep SNP tested?
This should probably be in another topic, but this may be an indicator that R-U106(S21) came into Scandinavia up through Denmark.   MMaddi another forum says there is good haplotype "ancestral" allele evidence that R-U106 moved into the Scandinavia area from East Europe via a northerly route through what is now Poland.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2009, 09:07:04 AM »

I'm looking forward to the Luxembourg, Belgium and Czech results. Once I figure out my budget here, I'm gonna put some funds towards the research.
I'm interested in almost anywhere along the Danube River as well.  

Almost have to "market" in those countries in Central and Eastern Europe.   Does FTDNA or anyone else have plans to "market" in some Eurasian countries?  
« Last Edit: October 01, 2009, 09:08:39 AM by Mike » Logged

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NealtheRed
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« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2009, 09:25:25 AM »

I would like to start with Belgium. There is L21 on both sides of that country.
What is even more interesting to me is that even though U106 appears to be the dominant clade in the Netherlands and northern Germany, Scandinavia has more L21 than both. Plus, P312 outrepresents U106 in virtually every Scandinavian country other than Denmark. How does THAT happen? Are there northern Germans who aren't U106 that haven't been deep SNP tested?
This should probably be in another topic, but this may be an indicator that R-U106(S21) came into Scandinavia up through Denmark.   MMaddi another forum says there is good haplotype "ancestral" allele evidence that R-U106 moved into the Scandinavia area from East Europe via a northerly route through what is now Poland.

That is interesting. Maybe P312* and L21 got there first.

I'm looking forward to the Luxembourg, Belgium and Czech results. Once I figure out my budget here, I'm gonna put some funds towards the research.
I'm interested in almost anywhere along the Danube River as well. 

Almost have to "market" in those countries in Central and Eastern Europe.   Does FTDNA or anyone else have plans to "market" in some Eurasian countries? 

Yeah, we really need more Eastern European countries to test. There's a huge hole from the Balkans to Slovakia.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2009, 09:35:25 AM »

I would like to start with Belgium. There is L21 on both sides of that country.
What is even more interesting to me is that even though U106 appears to be the dominant clade in the Netherlands and northern Germany, Scandinavia has more L21 than both. Plus, P312 outrepresents U106 in virtually every Scandinavian country other than Denmark. How does THAT happen? Are there northern Germans who aren't U106 that haven't been deep SNP tested?
This should probably be in another topic, but this may be an indicator that R-U106(S21) came into Scandinavia up through Denmark.   MMaddi another forum says there is good haplotype "ancestral" allele evidence that R-U106 moved into the Scandinavia area from East Europe via a northerly route through what is now Poland.

That is interesting. Maybe P312* and L21 got there first.
Seems like a good explanation.   For my money it must have been an extension to the LBK farming expansion or the later Bell Beaker expansion.  The pre(or early)-Germanic speakers, I think, came second.  At some point, Balto-Slavic types came in too.  Not sure when they fit... earlier or later.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2009, 09:46:58 AM »

I have a feeling I1 was in Scandinavia the earliest, but the R1* clades moved in and kept any considerable expansion from happening.
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rms2
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« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2009, 12:53:01 PM »

Just to let you all know, when calculating how many L21 tests we can pay for, one has to regard the cost per test as $38.50. Although the L21 test itself is just $29, most of the guys we get have never been SNP tested at all and so require a $9.50 transfer fee apiece so that their samples can be taken to FTDNA's Houston lab.

In other words, ten tests would cost us $385, one hundred tests $3,850, etc.

Man, would I like to be able to pay for 100 L21 tests!
« Last Edit: October 01, 2009, 12:54:55 PM by rms2 » Logged

alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2009, 02:59:25 PM »

I would like to start with Belgium. There is L21 on both sides of that country.

I kind of agree.  I really would love more samples from the north and east of France like Champagne, Lorraine, Alsace, Centre, Picardy etc that lie between the major west German and north French concentrations but if they are unobtainable within reasonable bounds (as seems to be the case for now) then Belgium and Luxembourg do stand out as places where L21 is likely to show up.  I sort of think the best idea is to do what we can in France then move target to Belgium and Luxemburg. I think there is L21 in Switzerland too but we would probably have a considerable miss rate due to the apparently high S28 there as well as S116*.  So some pain would be involved.   I personally would also be very interested in Bohemia too.  There were clearly Celts there with cultural links in a band from Bohemia to the south Germany and into north/east France. 
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2009, 03:18:28 PM »

Yeah, we really need more Eastern European countries to test. There's a huge hole from the Balkans to Slovakia.
[/quote]

I think if we do not ever get round to testing eastern Europe for L21 we will never be able to even start guessing how far east L21 fist happened.  I suspect S116 first happened quite far east, perhaps in the Balkans, and that L21 happened somewhere along the Danube. I base this on the basis that S116* is found on both sides of the Alps but L21 is only found on the north.  In eastern Europe the Czech Rep-Slovakia-south Poland axis was an important Celtic metal trade area in the Iron Age.  To the south, the Danube is the natural route (Austria and Hungary) between the east and west north of the Alps.  Almost all L21 lies north of the Alps and Pyrenees so its pretty clear that its an axis L21 would have travelled along.   
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2009, 03:21:30 PM »

I was reading Simon James, and I agree that at least the western Czech region could have some L21. Isn't that Bohemia?
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2009, 09:30:37 PM »

I just checked and individual R-L21 test has a new price of $99.00. The Deep Clade Extended C is still $39.00.
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
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« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2009, 09:44:35 PM »

I think the only consideration is that while funds remain slim, its best ot pick a stidy area where there might be a reasonable chance of some hits.  France needed a little more attention than most due to a void in testing but it was also the motherload in terms of L21 hits,  I really cannot see another country having as much of a hit rate.  Maybe the odd region of other countries but not nationally.  

I suspect that continental L21 is strongest in northern France and souht/west Germany then perhaps reasonable showings in Belgium, south Holland, Luxemburg and Switzerland which together formed the main block of Gaulish lands.  I believe that L21 was common among the Gauls.  

Beyond that, I think the narrow band leading through Austria, the Czech/Slovak and beyond formed a sort of eastern tail of the old main Gaiulish block and I think some L21 would be found there although the hit rate may drop.  

I understand that there is a reasonable probablility of weeding out S21 by STRs as long as there is a reasonable amount of markers.  That would leave S116 and S28 as the main non-L21 clades that might lead ot negarive tests.  I suppose our inability to distinguish L21 from S29 by STRs makes testing in the S28 hotspot around the Alps a little more risky.        
There is good reason to suspect that L21 is the most common R1b subclade in Norway. Certainly several years of testing indicates U106/S21 is very thin on the ground there. Of course some people think all L21 in Scandinavia was shipped out of Aberdeen in the 17th century.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2009, 10:00:35 PM »

There is good reason to suspect that L21 is the most common R1b subclade in Norway. Certainly several years of testing indicates U106/S21 is very thin on the ground there. Of course some people think all L21 in Scandinavia was shipped out of Aberdeen in the 17th century.
[/quote]

I really have no fixed views on Norway's L21 but a deep time explanation is also possible.  If L21 spread with other  R1b1b2 clades in the Linearbandkeramik (LBK) culture, it is worth bearing in mind that the Funnel Beaker (TRB) culture that brought farming to Scandinavia and nearby areas is thought itself to be ultimately decended from Linearbandkeramik culture (linked by an intermediate culture whose name escapes me).  If that is correct, it easy to see how L21 could have flowed into Scandinavia via the TRB culture if L21 had been present in the LBK culture (a big IF I know).  It is possible (likely IMO) that R1b1b2 spread as a completely mixed population with people of many clades and that the present pattern is just chance dependant on founder effedcts, bottlenecks etc with one clade flourishing in a given area by pure chance.   Perhaps chance favoured L21 in Norway and S21 in Denmark. 
 
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rms2
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« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2009, 07:32:17 AM »

I just checked and individual R-L21 test has a new price of $99.00. The Deep Clade Extended C is still $39.00.

That looks like a panel rather than simply L21 as a stand alone.

I cannot find L21 as a separate test on the Advanced Orders SNP list anymore, but we haven't had any trouble ordering it when the project is paying for it.

Guess I'm going to have to write FTDNA.

I don't understand why they would take L21 off the a la carte SNP list. Surely it's one of their best sellers?
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #24 on: October 02, 2009, 07:39:13 AM »

I'm looking forward to the Luxembourg, Belgium and Czech results. Once I figure out my budget here, I'm gonna put some funds towards the research.

I funded a handful and I have to say that it did provide a lot of entertainament.  It is amazing how much the L21 map shaped up even when an extra 3 or 4 dots go into new places.  One proviso I think is worth making when donating is that tests should not be from areas that are already (relatively) well sampled like the Rhineland or NW France.   f you total up the L21 and the S116* for all these areas you can see they are relatively well served due to American migratory patterns and a steady trickle of L21 testing should come in for those areas without using project funds.  Places like Italy (maybe not the north) and Iberia are probably in the middling category and migration patterns also somewhat favour the possibility of a slow trickle of people testing from there.  In contrast, large areas of France, Luxemburg, Belgium, Switzerland, Austria and the whole of eastern Europe have practically no L21 testing.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2009, 07:46:09 AM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
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