World Families Forums - Celt/Geat/Viking ancestry

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
July 31, 2014, 06:54:54 PM
Home Help Search Login Register

+  World Families Forums
|-+  General Forums - Note: You must Be Logged In to post. Anyone can browse.
| |-+  R1b General (Moderator: rms2)
| | |-+  Celt/Geat/Viking ancestry
« previous next »
Pages: [1] Go Down Print
Author Topic: Celt/Geat/Viking ancestry  (Read 1656 times)
gunslingingardener
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 32


« on: September 18, 2009, 06:20:13 PM »

Did all Celts have R1b DNA?

It seems that my ancestors could have started as Celts before the birth of Christ and then after the birth of Christ, migrated to Scandinavia and settled in Norway, then as Vikings, invading into parts of Europe.

The Gardner surname is a sept of either the Clan Jardine or the Clan Gordon. Both of these Scottish clans were of Norman French ancestry, which means they are descendants of Norsemen/Normans.

Logged
NealtheRed
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 930


« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2009, 11:36:27 PM »

I don't think ALL Celts had R1b, but that is definitely the haplogroup most represented in Celtic DNA. There is a clear correlation between the areas dominated by Celtic tribes and the pattern of R1b in Europe.

As for the Normans, most of the soldiers that invaded England were of Breton ancestry anyway; only a small number of Normans were of Viking ancestry. I'm sure there were Normans of Viking ancestry who were R1b.
Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2963


WWW
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2009, 12:21:36 AM »

I don't think ALL Celts had R1b, but that is definitely the haplogroup most represented in Celtic DNA. There is a clear correlation between the areas dominated by Celtic tribes and the pattern of R1b in Europe.

As for the Normans, most of the soldiers that invaded England were of Breton ancestry anyway; only a small number of Normans were of Viking ancestry. I'm sure there were Normans of Viking ancestry who were R1b.
I've heard the Norman invaders were a third Norse, a third Breton and and a third Flemish.  Do you have some source that describes the invading force in more detail?
Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
NealtheRed
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 930


« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2009, 10:52:25 AM »

I've always read the history stating that the largest contingent of the Norman army was Breton, possibly due to its proximity from Normandy. The Viking element in the force was not substantial.

I think William and his extended family are the extent of Scandinavian blood in the army (not exactly, but you get the point).
Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



alan trowel hands.
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2012


« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2009, 01:30:42 PM »

I've always read the history stating that the largest contingent of the Norman army was Breton, possibly due to its proximity from Normandy. The Viking element in the force was not substantial.

I think William and his extended family are the extent of Scandinavian blood in the army (not exactly, but you get the point).

Also, as far as I understand, the Normans had essentially become Feudalised French in culture by 1066 and as such lands could sometimes pass through daughters perhaps with the name/title remaining but the y-line changing.  If you look at the many grand feudal families today, the appearance of male line continuity is almost always false. 
Logged
gunslingingardener
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 32


« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2009, 01:32:13 PM »

Either way, I've read that the Clan Jardine was of Norse extraction and probably came over to Normandy with Rollo the Viking.

How influential was the Norman language?

I've always thought that the Anglo - Saxon culture lasted out longer than any of the others. Why were there Bretons in Normandy?

All of the early Gardners were spelled "le Gardiner", and Gardyner. I've never really believed it was an occupational name because there were knights with the surname Gardner. However, a page did worked as a gardener before becoming a knight, and knights did take occupational surnames.
The best theory I have read is that the Gardners were of Norman blood and that it comes from the Saxon words "gar" meaning weapon and "dyn" meaning sound, and together it means "clashing of arms".

Logged
NealtheRed
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 930


« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2009, 01:54:47 PM »

Most families of "Norman" blood I'm sure were of Gallic ancestry.

The Anglo-Saxon culture didn't outlast all the others, just the English language since only the Norman ruling class spoke French. That's why English has many loanwords from Anglo-Norman and Latin.
Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2963


WWW
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2009, 10:57:44 PM »

Most families of "Norman" blood I'm sure were of Gallic ancestry. ...
My family was called Anglo-Norman because to the Irish they were, but in reality I think my genetics and surname probably indicate a Celtic deep ancestry.

Everything I've read about the Normans is they were a very mixed people, which was one of their strengths.  They came on the scene in NW Europe by the 10th century and made a big impact by melding multiple peoples and cultures together.  As they conquered and spread they continued to adapt and "blend in."  In that way they kind of disappeared eventually.

In Ireland it has been said the Anglo-Normans became "more Irish than the Irish themselves."  Some think it was because of their Celtic underpinnings.  Don't misunderstand, there were real "Norse-men" in Normandy that ruled over and intermarried with the inhabitants, some of whom must have been Gaulish.  Some were obviously Breton, given the proximity.   In the case of Anglo-Normans in Ireland, the Normans probably received some of their Celtic affinities from the Welsh, whom they intermarried with before the Cambro-Norman Invasion of Ireland during the 12th century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Normandy
« Last Edit: September 22, 2009, 11:00:02 PM by Mike » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
gunslingingardener
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 32


« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2009, 10:59:42 PM »

There are always two sides to every story, sometimes even more.

The House of Names website (which is completely unreliable) and a few other histories written on the Gardner family stated that they were Anglo - Saxon and came as an occupational name, but had married with the Norman royalty.

However, I have also read that the Gardner family was of Norman blood and invaded during the conquest which is much more believable because the name started out as le Gardiner, and Gardyner, and plus all of the early bearers of the surname were knights and owned land.

The word gardener in Old English/Saxon language is "leacweard", which sounds and is spelled nothing like Gardener today to make an occupational name out of it.

The only way the surname means "garden" or "gardener" is from the Norman Scotch clan Jardine, who are said to have descended from Norse Vikings.

A gardener is a servant, but gardens were a big deal back then if the name is derived from a gardener. Knights were servants and had worked in gardens, tended horses, and learned combat and then became a knight sometime after the age of twenty - one. If the Old English language was the main thing that survived then my Norman ancestors probably had the name as Gardynyr, meaning "one who clashes with arms".
Logged
Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2963


WWW
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2009, 11:12:03 PM »

....
The House of Names website (which is completely unreliable) .......
The word gardener in Old English/Saxon language is "leacweard", which sounds and is spelled nothing like Gardener today to make an occupational name out of it.

The only way the surname means "garden" or "gardener" is from the Norman Scotch clan Jardine, who are said to have descended from Norse Vikings.
...
Sorry to be such a downer on surnames (I've got one too), but I wouldn't get too hung up on them.

You can go to almost any family surname project at FTDNA and see different groupings of people all with the same surname that have Y-DNA (check the haplogroups) not related for at least 10 or 20 thousand years.

Even the original meanings and origin points of many surnames are disputed. No doubt some, maybe most, surnames had multiple parallel paths of origination.
Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
NealtheRed
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 930


« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2009, 11:38:15 PM »

That's true; you can't put too much weight on surnames.

You might well be of Norse stock, Mr. Gardner. Who knows? That's why we do genetic research. But honestly, given the geographical spread of R1b in northern Europe amongst people of both Celtic and Germanic stock, are there any major differences between the races besides culture and language? Not on the paternal side anyway.

In fact, I'd give much credence to the idea that R1b is the most successful y-chromosome in Europe. This statement can be controversial if taken the wrong way, but I'd like to apply it strictly to the idea of populating the continent, and that of Australia, North America and New Zealand to name a few.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2009, 11:39:56 PM by NealtheRed » Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



aidan
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 10


« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2009, 03:50:38 PM »

How influential was the Norman language?

Here is information on a language brought by the Normans to Ireland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yola_language
Logged

Y-DNA: R-M222
mtDNA: H3
Pages: [1] Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


SEO light theme by © Mustang forums. Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC

Page created in 0.121 seconds with 18 queries.