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Author Topic: R1b in the French Heritage Project  (Read 1125 times)
rms2
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« on: September 12, 2009, 01:24:01 PM »

I tried doing some counting of R1b in the French Heritage Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/French-Canadian%20Heritage%20DNA%20Project/default.aspx?section=yresults) today. If I have made any errors, I think they will be slight, but this kind of bean counting is monotonous, and mistakes are possible. I took these stats ONLY from the French Heritage Project; I did not include French R-L21*, for example, whom I know about but who do not belong to the French Heritage Project. I also did not count anyone in the "Unassigned Members" category.

I tried to avoid counting every member of what was obviously the same y-dna line. That wasn't easy.

Anyway, here are some of the stats I got.

Total R1b:  440
Need SNP Testing: 336
SNP Tested (to something approaching current capability) : 104


R-L23:  3

R-P310:  2

R-U106:  10
    
R-U198:    1

R-L48:  5

R-P312:  35

R-U152:  8

R-L2:  11

R-SRY2627:  10

R-L21:  17

R-M222:  2


First off, it should be obvious that the R1b of the French Heritage Project is about 80% P312+. Of its 104 SNP-tested R1bs, 83 of them are P312+.

Of those, 35 have not yet been found positive for anything beyond P312. It is difficult to say which of those with the green "R1b1b2a1b" are R-P312* and which of them have not yet been tested for L21. Most are probably R-P312*. I know many of them are, because I recognized their names from the R-P312 and Subclades Project. But some of them no doubt have not yet been tested for L21, and some may have a green "R1b1b2a1b" temporarily while they await the rest of their Deep Clade-R results. I know of at least one in which that is the case. He has his P312+ result in but is still awaiting testing for some of the downstream SNPs, including L21.

So that figure of 35 should not be taken to indicate the absolute number of R-P312* in the French Heritage Project; the figure for R-P312* is actually slightly lower.

Here is something else to take into account (and I know I sound like a broken record on this). Testing for L21 has only been around since October of 2008, and L21 did not become a part of FTDNA's Deep Clade-R test until late January of 2009. That means U106, U152, and SRY2627 have enjoyed a tremendous headstart.

Yet R1b1b2a1b5 (R-L21*) is already the leading single P312+ subclade in the French Heritage Project. (Remember, R-P312* is a paragroup, not a subclade; a number of smaller, as-yet-undiscovered subclades may comprise it.)

In the recent random French R1b1b2 testing recruited by the R-L21 Plus Project (see this thread), 54% of those tested overall were L21+ and 60% of those with ancestry in Northern France were L21+.

Anyway, there are at least 336 R1b lines in the French Heritage Project that need SNP testing. That is over 76% of the R1b in the French Heritage Project!

Wouldn't it be nice if we could get all of those guys tested, or at least some of them?


« Last Edit: September 12, 2009, 01:29:38 PM by rms2 » Logged

Mark Jost
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« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2009, 02:15:22 PM »

Nice analysis there!

Now if you had even half of those who need testing done, maybe that could link the West Central Germany pack to NW France group with a route corridor.
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
rms2
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« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2009, 02:23:35 PM »

Nice analysis there!

Now if you had even half of those who need testing done, maybe that could link the West Central Germany pack to NW France group with a route corridor.

Yes, and that is something that needs doing. That has been on my mind lately. We need to recruit some folks with ancestry in Eastern France for L21 testing.

If you look at the R-L21* European Continent Map (especially if you click on "Terrain"), you can see there should be a band of R-L21* stretching across the Franco-German border and all across Northern France. Mylott (Millot) is there in Champagne-Ardenne as, in my view, an indicator of the likely pathway. But we need more results from that vicinity.
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2009, 03:15:40 PM »

If you switch the map to show Traffic you can see the major highway which might show the least path of resistance.
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
rms2
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« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2009, 04:20:08 PM »

If you switch the map to show Traffic you can see the major highway which might show the least path of resistance.

I just tried that (at your suggestion). Unfortunately, it isn't too helpful.

I know that Northern France is an extension of the basically flat or slightly rolling European Plain. That fact was an important part in the German invasion plans of both WWI and WWII. You can see how the Von Schlieffen Plan of WWI was supposed to have worked here.

If L21 entered France from Germany, it might have followed a similar path, which was largely chosen for topography and ease of movement.

Here is a set of maps for WWII and the Battle of France:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1939-1940-battle_of_france-plan-evolution.jpg
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rms2
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« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2009, 04:40:03 PM »

I understand the Ardennes forest has terrain that consists of ridges that parallel each other with valleys that run from northeast to southwest, funneling traffic in that direction.

http://encarta.msn.com/map_701510207/ardennes.html


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Mark Jost
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« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2009, 05:15:19 PM »

Interesting maps, which made me look at the Roman Empire maps. Rome controlled everything concerning trade west of the Rhine and south of the Danbue from Britton to Asia. Legions were staged along the two rivers after the Germantic defeats. But didnt they start entering south of France at first?
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
rms2
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« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2009, 05:24:29 PM »

Interesting maps, which made me look at the Roman Empire maps. Rome controlled everything concerning trade west of the Rhine and south of the Danbue from Britton to Asia. Legions were staged along the two rivers after the Germantic defeats. But didnt they start entering south of France at first?

Sure, but they were coming from Italy. It doesn't seem likely that L21 came from Italy.
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2009, 05:40:31 PM »

I guess I was attempting to see where the trade routes were defined and how trade transferred between France to Germany and how the Roman's would have used the same routes.
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2009, 06:58:44 PM »

Yeah I agree with the need to target areas that are un/undersampled.  I think its not that a lack of L21 has been indicated in the part of the north to the east of Paris.  Its just that so few have been tested in that area.  I know that Brittany was excluded during selection in this round of testing but I think in any future selection the entirety of the north of France to the west of Paris should now be excluded, simply because its now well established that that large area of has plenty of L21 and further testing there would seem a luxury given the lack of funds.   

Alsace, Lorraine, Champagne-Ardenne etc would be the most likely linking area worth pulling out the stops to get a few samples from.  It also remains to be established if L21 is common in the NE (Picardie and Nord Pas de Caley) which was part of Belgic Gaul.  The south is also undersampled but I think priority should be given to look into the L21 prevallence in the area between the known north-west French and the west German concentrations.   
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« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2009, 07:27:14 PM »

I would think that anywhere alone the Siene and toward the Rhine via Moselle river would be an area to concentrate on.
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
rms2
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« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2009, 07:39:49 PM »

Yeah I agree with the need to target areas that are un/undersampled.  I think its not that a lack of L21 has been indicated in the part of the north to the east of Paris.  Its just that so few have been tested in that area.  I know that Brittany was excluded during selection in this round of testing but I think in any future selection the entirety of the north of France to the west of Paris should now be excluded, simply because its now well established that that large area of has plenty of L21 and further testing there would seem a luxury given the lack of funds.   

Alsace, Lorraine, Champagne-Ardenne etc would be the most likely linking area worth pulling out the stops to get a few samples from.  It also remains to be established if L21 is common in the NE (Picardie and Nord Pas de Caley) which was part of Belgic Gaul.  The south is also undersampled but I think priority should be given to look into the L21 prevallence in the area between the known north-west French and the west German concentrations.   

I agree. If and when we get some more donations (soon, I hope), I also think we should try to recruit test subjects from Eastern and Central France.

I'm not sure how easy that will be. My main source of recruits this time around seemed to be French Canadians. Maybe NW France was the main source of colonists for French Canada?
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2009, 02:15:41 AM »

Fine work, Rich. You say: “Sure, but they were coming from Italy. It doesn't seem likely that L21 came from Italy”.
We should ask which hgs. entered France from Italy, thinking that Provence was largely colonized by Romans, Gallia was a part of the Roman Empire for five centuries, France has always had introgressions from Italy (and it happened also the contrary as Bonnet demonstrates) and today French have at least 4 millions of Italian extraction.
This said, it seems to me that a 3% of R-L23 is very few, being in Italy a very higher percentage. I think we can conclude that hg. R entered France from Central Europe, from the Linearbandkeramik people, that the Refugium of R (except perhaps R1b1*) wasn’t in the Cantabrian region but in Italy-Balkans and the R-s subclades entered West Europe from Central Europe. Some of them, those we don’t find East, probably was born there, like R-L21 and subclades, R-M153 and R-M167 we don’t find in Italy.
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Maliclavelli


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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2009, 04:31:20 AM »

There does seem to be a genuine tendency for available French Samples to be from the NW quarter of France.   I cant think of any reason for that other than some sort of migration pattern.  I suppose Geographically it makes sense to leave from there.   It certainly worked this wgy with Irish immigration with strong trends for the northern Irish tending to go to Scotland and NE England, the midlands Irish to Liverpool, the south coast Irish to London and the west to the Americas (I know these are generalisations).  So where the nearest shipping links led to can be a big influence in some areas.

 
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2009, 10:40:02 AM »

Didn't the LBK homestead in the valleys of Rhine and Neckar around 5000 BC. The people spread into Alsace and the Rhineland around the same time staying along the river migrating east to the Paris Basin? This is an area that could prove to be logical starting point of the a few HG's.
I think we can conclude that hg. R entered France from Central Europe, from the Linearbandkeramik people, that the Refugium of R (except perhaps R1b1*) wasn’t in the Cantabrian region but in Italy-Balkans and the R-s subclades entered West Europe from Central Europe. Some of them, those we don’t find East, probably was born there, like R-L21 and subclades, R-M153 and R-M167 we don’t find in Italy.

Logged

148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
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« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2009, 10:58:43 AM »

Pre-History had great expansions and even up to the Medieval times settlements were thickly populated, with much wilderness in between. But migration patterns after that 10 and 11 th century were for farming needs mainly I suspect. This expansion and colonization were due to an improving climate.
There does seem to be a genuine tendency for available French Samples to be from the NW quarter of France.   I cant think of any reason for that other than some sort of migration pattern.  I suppose Geographically it makes sense to leave from there.   It certainly worked this wgy with Irish immigration with strong trends for the northern Irish tending to go to Scotland and NE England, the midlands Irish to Liverpool, the south coast Irish to London and the west to the Americas (I know these are generalisations).  So where the nearest shipping links led to can be a big influence in some areas.

 
Logged

148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
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