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Author Topic: New SNP Downstream of L21  (Read 17422 times)
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #150 on: October 07, 2009, 11:51:10 AM »

Mike, that Foley is the wrong one as ours has 14-30 at DYS389i and ii. The Gaston you have is correct.
I figured out who the Foley was.  Which Byrne is it?
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #151 on: October 07, 2009, 11:52:59 AM »

I noticed that FtDNA has added a bunch new SNP's to the R-L21 list. Anyone hear of some of these. (PS Only two show the discriptions on FtDNA's order page)

 R-L21 †  $99.00 *
This SNP (rs11799226) divides members of haplogroup R1b who are positive for rs34276300.

 L130  $29.00
Display Name: ChrY:6813503 
Ancestral: G 
Derived: A 
Phylogeny: Found within R-L21. Parallel to M222.  .......
What does "Parallel to M222" mean?   Does that mean it is NOT found in any M222+ individuals?
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
Mark Jost
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« Reply #152 on: October 07, 2009, 12:18:23 PM »

I took it as if you have M222 you might have this one as well. I would be nice if FtDna would post information as these thing come into play with a general blog or something.
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
Jdean
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« Reply #153 on: October 07, 2009, 12:34:49 PM »

What does "Parallel to M222" mean?   Does that mean it is NOT found in any M222+ individuals?

I took it as meaning they didn't cross, but Thomas has them on his draft of the Y below R-M269, and they are shown as brother to M222 there.

http://www.dna-fingerprint.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=21
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #154 on: October 07, 2009, 12:51:21 PM »

Ok, Brother and parallel clades are the same thing.
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
NealtheRed
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« Reply #155 on: October 08, 2009, 09:09:59 PM »

I am officially L159+.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



Jdean
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« Reply #156 on: October 09, 2009, 09:41:49 AM »

I am officially L159+.

Marvellous news, are you the furthest GD from the Leinster Modal confirmed positive for L159?
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #157 on: October 09, 2009, 11:01:43 AM »

I actually think the Gaston L159+ is the furthest from the modal, but I'm not particularly close either.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


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Jdean
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« Reply #158 on: October 09, 2009, 01:10:24 PM »

I actually think the Gaston L159+ is the furthest from the modal, but I'm not particularly close either.

How far is Gaston from the modal?

It's going to be interesting to see what happens when some of the more speculative tests for this start coming through, one person at least has a GD of 27 from the modal.

I wonder if anybody has ordered L69 yet, I'll be finding out if I'm positive for it next year or maybe the one after that, depending on how long my WTY takes.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2009, 01:11:13 PM by Jdean » Logged

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NealtheRed
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« Reply #159 on: October 09, 2009, 02:39:09 PM »

The Gaston actually inherits the WAMH, which is uncommon for the Leinster cluster. However, this could open up more testing to those who don't match ALL key markers for the Irish Sea Haplotype.

You know, a good portion of the cluster has Norman surnames and I wonder if some of the Irish surnames are actually descendants of Norman settlers. I was just informed of a 25 marker match with a Newell, a Hiberno-Norman surname.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



Jdean
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« Reply #160 on: October 09, 2009, 03:22:32 PM »

Hmm an SNP that encompasses France and Ireland, if that pans out I can just imagine the debate that would ensue.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #161 on: October 09, 2009, 03:51:33 PM »

The Gaston actually inherits the WAMH, which is uncommon for the Leinster cluster. However, this could open up more testing to those who don't match ALL key markers for the Irish Sea Haplotype.

You know, a good portion of the cluster has Norman surnames and I wonder if some of the Irish surnames are actually descendants of Norman settlers. I was just informed of a 25 marker match with a Newell, a Hiberno-Norman surname.

Or it may just be history repeating itself.  I would guess that most significant groups of prehistoric settlers who came directly to Ireland from the continent rather than via Britain launched their boats from northern France. It may be that many Normans who arrived in Ireland had the same north French origin and y-lines as prehistoric settlers who came to Ireland.  Historians have commented on how the origin myth of the Leinstermen set in prehistory wherebye the Gauls were invited over was repeated again in historical times when Dermot McMurrough invited the Normans. to Ireland.  This all could account for the mixture of both Irish and Norman surnames in the Leinster cluster. 
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #162 on: October 09, 2009, 03:55:13 PM »

Hmm an SNP that encompasses France and Ireland,

Yep we have that already in L21 although strangely this fact has not caused the eureka moment among those looking for the roots of Irish L21.  That kind of amazes me.  I am not sure what people are waiting for.   
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #163 on: October 09, 2009, 04:11:44 PM »

I think the reason is that L21 covers such a large area, and people are looking for a SNP or marker that designates a SPECIFIC geographic area. I think we're slowly getting to that point, and I agree that L21 has done much for advancing research and theory. But people will still want more resolution.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



Jdean
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« Reply #164 on: October 09, 2009, 04:24:38 PM »

Probably also the fact that R1b1b2 results look so perishingly similar
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #165 on: October 09, 2009, 05:04:10 PM »

I think the overall issue is we need a better way to obtain a more accurate sampling frame of the overall population.

That's the problem with the Leinster cluster. Members have matches from all over, from Norway to France, but getting them to test is almost futile. So we're stuck with a premise that the cluster's origins are in Britain and Ireland. I'm not opposed to such an origin, but there's blatant sampling bias at work here.

It appears some only want to sample those populations that will support their theories.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



NealtheRed
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« Reply #166 on: October 09, 2009, 09:49:42 PM »

I went ahead and requested a separate, R1b-L159.2 project at FTDNA. I want the process to be inclusive.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


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Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen
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« Reply #167 on: October 09, 2009, 09:57:53 PM »

"Yep we have that already in L21 although strangely this fact has not caused the eureka moment among those looking for the roots of Irish L21.  That kind of amazes me.  I am not sure what people are waiting for."


People are waiting for validation from the academic professional community, which is utterly ridiculous. Nobody needs to tell me its okay to do good science.
 
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #168 on: October 09, 2009, 11:20:45 PM »

I agree with you, Mr. Nolan. We all are involved in the scientific process, investigating data-sets, formulating hypotheses and constantly updating them.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #169 on: October 10, 2009, 01:18:36 PM »

I just saw in the BeattyBrynes (L159.2 guys) cluster that theyu had "L96- results from 3 individuals from 2 different families and L130-".

What is the breadth of derived (positive) testing for these other SNP's?

I noticed that FtDNA has added a bunch new SNP's to the R-L21 list. Anyone hear of some of these. (PS Only two show the discriptions on FtDNA's order page)

 R-L21 †  $99.00 *
This SNP (rs11799226) divides members of haplogroup R1b who are positive for rs34276300.

 L130  $29.00
Display Name: ChrY:6813503 
Ancestral: G 
Derived: A 
Phylogeny: Found within R-L21. Parallel to M222. 
Frequency: 


 L144  $29.00
Display Name: rs9306842 
Ancestral: A 
Derived: T 
Phylogeny: Found within R-L21. Parallel to M222. 
Frequency: 


 L192  $29.00
Display Name: ChrY:6813342 
Ancestral: C 
Derived: T 
Phylogeny: Found in a R-L21* person 
Frequency: 


 L193  $29.00
Display Name: ChrY:6813344 
Ancestral: G 
Derived: A 
Phylogeny: Found in a R-L21* person 
Frequency: 


 L195  $29.00
Display Name: ChrY:21120852 
Ancestral: del- 
Derived: ins+ 
Phylogeny: Found in one R-L21 person. Probably co-mutates with L144. HUGO unclear. 
Frequency: 


 L96  $29.00
Display Name: ChrY:13411850 
Ancestral: A 
Derived: G 
Phylogeny: Found within R-L21. Brother clade to all other published branches. 
Frequency: Possible Singleton. 


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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
GoldenHind
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« Reply #170 on: October 11, 2009, 07:32:37 PM »

Hmm an SNP that encompasses France and Ireland,

Yep we have that already in L21 although strangely this fact has not caused the eureka moment among those looking for the roots of Irish L21.  That kind of amazes me.  I am not sure what people are waiting for.   
All the French L21 were shipped out of Dundee and Aberdeen? Or was it Dublin and Wexford?
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #171 on: October 11, 2009, 08:05:00 PM »

All the French L21 were shipped out of Dundee and Aberdeen? Or was it Dublin and Wexford?
[/quote]

lol I think that sort of theory and indeed all out of isles theories were dead as soon as places like France and SW Germany started throwing up an L21 majority among its local R1b1b2.  I think those ideas could only be sustained if you ignore the huge isles testing biase and focus on absolute numbers instead of what % of R1b that L21 is in each area. To look simply at absolute numbers is completely illogical of course.  Every 2nd French R1b1b2 person tested is L21 and the dominance of L21 in places like France and SW Germany can be seen by looking at the project maps for all the clades in this area while taking on board the fact that L21 has only been available for a very short time compared to S21 and S28.  Despite that, L21 is already the biggest clade of the biggest haplotype (and therefore the modal) in those areas.  To be honest I think some people just didnt want the believe this.  I have been so firm on this because I have kept a close eye on L21 in France and although the numbers tested were then too small for full credibility of any statistics, French L21 testing has since only half a dozen tests were hovered steadily around the 50% positive result mark, give or take.  Cross comparison of the Rhineland clade project maps seems to roughly indicate approaching 40% of R1b there is L21 too.  Again, note that L21 has only been available for testing for a fraction of the time of S28 etc.  

So, L21 stands a very good chance of being the modal for NW Europe west of the Rhine. Clearly its out of the question to explain this size of input by an out of isles scenario of any sort when the historical and archaeological records are also considered.     I posted several times that I thought that the Rhineland concentration was the visible eastern edge of an otherwise invisible (due to lack of testing) large L21 block mainly in France and that really does look like it is true. Its also silly to think France is OK but Germany must be wrong as an L21 source. That is based on modern ideas and stereotypes.  The Rhineland and France were both parts of the same Gaulish territory in the past and their was no cultural distinction between France and SW Germany at that time.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2009, 08:12:55 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #172 on: October 11, 2009, 10:47:29 PM »

Quote
All the French L21 were shipped out of Dundee and Aberdeen? Or was it Dublin and Wexford?

lol I think that sort of theory and indeed all out of isles theories were dead as soon as places like France and SW Germany started throwing up an L21 majority among its local R1b1b2.  .....   I posted several times that I thought that the Rhineland concentration was the visible eastern edge of an otherwise invisible (due to lack of testing) large L21 block mainly in France and that really does look like it is true. Its also silly to think France is OK but Germany must be wrong as an L21 source. That is based on modern ideas and stereotypes.  The Rhineland and France were both parts of the same Gaulish territory in the past and their was no cultural distinction between France and SW Germany at that time.
I have to agree with you that the Rhineland was just the visible edge of old France.  It only makes sense.  Gaul was for Gauls and Gauls are Celts.  Ireland and much of Britain was also Celtic.  There certainly must be at least one common clade with this distribution...  L21+.   Some undefined pieces of P312* and probably U152 played a part of this too.    There also might be a types of Hg I that hung out with these guys too, at least in parts of the distribution.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2009, 10:51:13 PM by Mike » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
GoldenHind
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« Reply #173 on: October 12, 2009, 08:53:59 PM »

All the French L21 were shipped out of Dundee and Aberdeen? Or was it Dublin and Wexford?

lol I think that sort of theory and indeed all out of isles theories were dead as soon as places like France and SW Germany started throwing up an L21 majority among its local R1b1b2.  
[/quote]
Obviously you haven't read a certain discussion on another forum today.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2009, 08:54:56 PM by GoldenHind » Logged
NealtheRed
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« Reply #174 on: November 13, 2009, 07:35:25 PM »

A couple of folks came back L159.2+ today:

Flynn
Baldwin
O'Connor
McDonald
Megehee

Thanks to RMS for making some of us feel special on the L-21 Results page!!
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



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