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Author Topic: New SNP Downstream of L21  (Read 14779 times)
rms2
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« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2009, 03:14:04 PM »


. . .

BTW, the FitzWilliam is a Norman surname, right?

It should be, either that or Breton, since the Bretons also used those "Fitz" surnames.

For example, the famous royal Stuarts are supposed to have originated in Dol-de-Bretagne and had the surname FitzAlan.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2009, 03:15:42 PM by rms2 » Logged

NealtheRed
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« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2009, 07:07:58 PM »

There are plenty of Norman names in the cluster: D'Arcy, Redmond, and Dillon to name a few. We also have a Gaston, which is a French name.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



NealtheRed
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« Reply #27 on: September 23, 2009, 11:04:04 PM »

I placed an order for L159 yesterday, and results are scheduled for early November. I doubt it will take that long since the second L159+ result arrived in two weeks.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



Mark Jost
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« Reply #28 on: September 23, 2009, 11:13:57 PM »

Mine is on order L159(L159)  due 11/09/2009  Batch 327 
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #29 on: September 24, 2009, 06:07:29 AM »

There are plenty of Norman names in the cluster: D'Arcy, Redmond, and Dillon to name a few. We also have a Gaston, which is a French name.

I am not a big fan of using Irish legends as a source for prehistoric settlement infomation, but I do wonder if the Laigin cluster could be an exception.  Between the interesting mix of Irish, British and French names, I have always wondered if this cluster reflects some sort of small movement down the Irish Sea from NW France, perhaps in the Iron Age.  The distribution and names seems to suggest it predates surnames and was therefore likely prehistoric in date.  The Laigin legends mention the Fir Domnainn as part of their ancestry which is thought to be the same linguistically as that of the Dumnoni tribe of SW England and the Damnoni tribe of SW Scotland and some also think this may also be linked to Brittany.  If I recall correctly,  the tribal name means 'people of the deep' or 'people of the goddess of the deep' which to me sounds a bit like a maritime people.  Perhaps small groups of the same tribe controlled nodal points along a trade route from northern France along and along the Irish Sea.  

While I think by sheer fact of geography most prehistoric Irish settlers came via Britain, I think NW France (Brittany and Normandy) is by far the most likely source of any settlement that was direct from the continent, being by far the closest part of the latter to Ireland. The Laigin legends are full of hints of a Gaulish and or British origin.  This could explain why both Gaelic and Norman surnames in Ireland fall into this cluster.  In this scenario, the Normans included people of essentially the same north French stock as the ancestors of the Lagain and of course both Ireland and Northern France are real L21 hotspots in general so it is hard to distinguish between prehistoric and historic period settlement involving a northern French element.  

The strange parallel between the Laign origin story involving inviting a king from Gaul and the historic story of Dermot McMurrough inviting the Normans has been observed before by historians many times.  However, its possible that not only was history repeating itself but there may have been movement of very similar genes involved.  Hence it might be really difficult sorting out Irish (perhaps especially Laigin) and Norman y-lines.  In general, it does look like on the y-line anyway that northern France is the most gentically similar part of the continent to Ireland.  Indeed, northern France looks like it may be an extremely strong L21 hotspot so that any movements heading from there to Ireland in either prehistoric or historic times would have brought plenty of L21 and it would be hard to distinguise different waves of settlement involving northern French lines.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2009, 06:39:58 AM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
NealtheRed
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« Reply #30 on: September 24, 2009, 08:24:22 AM »

That's what I thought about our Norman matches. We are always discussing the abundance of L21 in northern France, and it makes sense that the journey into Ireland is from the French coast of Normandy/Brittany.

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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



Mike Walsh
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« Reply #31 on: September 24, 2009, 01:43:28 PM »

...
While I think by sheer fact of geography most prehistoric Irish settlers came via Britain, I think NW France (Brittany and Normandy) is by far the most likely source of any settlement that was direct from the continent, being by far the closest part of the latter to Ireland. The Laigin legends are full of hints of a Gaulish and or British origin.  This could explain why both Gaelic and Norman surnames in Ireland fall into this cluster.  In this scenario, the Normans included people of essentially the same north French stock as the ancestors of the Lagain and of course both Ireland and Northern France are real L21 hotspots in general so it is hard to distinguish between prehistoric and historic period settlement involving a northern French element.  

The strange parallel between the Laign origin story involving inviting a king from Gaul and the historic story of Dermot McMurrough inviting the Normans has been observed before by historians many times.  However, its possible that not only was history repeating itself but there may have been movement of very similar genes involved.  Hence it might be really difficult sorting out Irish (perhaps especially Laigin) and Norman y-lines.  In general, it does look like on the y-line anyway that northern France is the most gentically similar part of the continent to Ireland.  Indeed, northern France looks like it may be an extremely strong L21 hotspot so that any movements heading from there to Ireland in either prehistoric or historic times would have brought plenty of L21 and it would be hard to distinguise different waves of settlement involving northern French lines.
I agree entirely.  I've been looking at my own matches (none that close) after reading as much as I could about the Celts, some Irish legend stuff I come to the same conclusion....   It is difficult to sort out the waves, of which there must have been several, maybe many.

Here is one example:  More than one Norman invader into England may have been a descendant of a Breton who actually came from England during the Anglo-Saxon Invasions, where his ancestor was a Briton.   Of course, the Briton may have been a descendant of a Gaul who was from NW or Northern France.   A kind of "recycling."
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #32 on: September 24, 2009, 02:28:07 PM »



[/quote]
I agree entirely.  I've been looking at my own matches (none that close) after reading as much as I could about the Celts, some Irish legend stuff I come to the same conclusion....   It is difficult to sort out the waves, of which there must have been several, maybe many.

Here is one example:  More than one Norman invader into England may have been a descendant of a Breton who actually came from England during the Anglo-Saxon Invasions, where his ancestor was a Briton.   Of course, the Briton may have been a descendant of a Gaul who was from NW or Northern France.   A kind of "recycling."

[/quote]

Of course many Normans were really Franks and in turn many of these Franks may really have been of Gallo-Roman descent.  I dont think many believe that either the Vikings or the Franks budged the bulk of the local Gallo-Roman populations and I think it is generally assumed most of the French are of Galli-Roman origins. Hence the romance language and lack of widespread Germanic placenames in most of France. 
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #33 on: September 24, 2009, 02:56:25 PM »

Who do we know that is R-L21* that does NOT have L159+.  They would be "ancestral" or L159-. I wonder what those Ysearch IDs are so we can compare.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #34 on: September 24, 2009, 03:35:52 PM »

Earlier in this thread a letter from Dr Krahn was quoted and that stated:

'Other R-P312, R-L21, R-M222 WTY participants are L159.2 ancestral so far'.  
« Last Edit: September 24, 2009, 03:36:11 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
NealtheRed
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« Reply #35 on: September 24, 2009, 04:06:00 PM »

Right, those other WTY testees are negative for L159.2. Your guess is better than mine as to whom they are.

Now, if L159.2 does eventually catch on, I'd like to sample some Frenchmen, especially since we have continentals in the cluster.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2009, 04:06:33 PM by NealtheRed » Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



Mike Walsh
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« Reply #36 on: September 24, 2009, 06:18:02 PM »

Right, those other WTY testees are negative for L159.2. Your guess is better than mine as to whom they are. ....
I don't know if I can get a detailed list of R-L21* WTY participants, but I can probably ascertain who is L159.2-.   I hate to assume they are all negative, but will probably have to if they don't speak up.
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cmblandford
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« Reply #37 on: September 25, 2009, 12:50:59 AM »

Bernard Sicher is a Frenchman in L21 WTY; he should have completed WTY testing by now.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2009, 12:57:16 AM by cmblandford » Logged

Y-DNA:  R-DF13*


Surname Project:  Blandford

Kit:  ft115893   Ysearch:  EYSPZ


Earliest Known Ancestor:  Thomas Blanford; Dorset, England; born 1648


secherbernard
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« Reply #38 on: September 25, 2009, 03:18:13 AM »

Bernard Sicher is a Frenchman in L21 WTY; he should have completed WTY testing by now.
I have no WTY results yet

Bernard
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YDNA: R-DF13+ L69+ DYS464X: cccc.3
mtDNA: U6a7a1
mtDNA of my father: U5a2c
YDNA of my maternal uncle: I1*
Ysearch and Mitosearch: UE9BU
Ysearch of my maternal uncle: CEC59

Jdean
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« Reply #39 on: September 25, 2009, 08:41:05 AM »

As yet results have come in for three L21's and one M222, but I don't think this includes Thomas Krahn's, so that would mean four L21's, one of which is positive for L159
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Y-DNA R-DF49*
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Kit No. 117897
Ysearch 3BMC9

NealtheRed
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« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2009, 11:29:24 AM »

I know we have at least seven testing for L159.2 currently, and should be receiving results soon.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



Mark Jost
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« Reply #41 on: September 29, 2009, 11:07:28 AM »

I am L159-
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
rms2
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« Reply #42 on: September 29, 2009, 12:50:45 PM »

I am L159-

You're not the only one. A bunch of guys got L159 results today and, thus far, all are negative.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #43 on: September 29, 2009, 01:50:58 PM »

Do you know who tested negative? I know the Leinsiter cluster had a few testing as well.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



NealtheRed
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« Reply #44 on: September 29, 2009, 01:52:33 PM »

LOL how ironic, one of those is me! I am L159.2-!
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



cmblandford
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« Reply #45 on: September 29, 2009, 02:55:25 PM »

I am also L159-; a positive result would have been very unexpected.
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Y-DNA:  R-DF13*


Surname Project:  Blandford

Kit:  ft115893   Ysearch:  EYSPZ


Earliest Known Ancestor:  Thomas Blanford; Dorset, England; born 1648


NealtheRed
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« Reply #46 on: September 29, 2009, 02:58:54 PM »

I understand, but in my case, given my distance from the Leinster cluster member who tested L159.2+ I thought I would surely test positive.

I'm kind of shocked, to be honest. FitzWilliam had more genetic distance between him and the WTY participant but they are both L159.2+.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2009, 02:59:15 PM by NealtheRed » Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



Mike Walsh
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« Reply #47 on: September 29, 2009, 03:30:23 PM »

I understand, but in my case, given my distance from the Leinster cluster member who tested L159.2+ I thought I would surely test positive.

I'm kind of shocked, to be honest. FitzWilliam had more genetic distance between him and the WTY participant but they are both L159.2+.
That's why I don't like just comparing genetic distances. 
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #48 on: September 29, 2009, 03:45:36 PM »

Man, what a crock. I know that comparing STRs doesn't do much when comparing 12-marker or 25-marker matches, but I was sure to be positive for this SNP.

Apparently, it was not meant to be.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #49 on: September 29, 2009, 04:26:24 PM »

Man, what a crock. I know that comparing STRs doesn't do much when comparing 12-marker or 25-marker matches, but I was sure to be positive for this SNP.

Apparently, it was not meant to be.
Keep in mind also, that this SNP, 159.2 appears in another major haplogroup.  I am not sure that this should be classified as a stable "once in an eternity" type event.  I know, nothing really is that stable anyway but this does seem to be less stable than our big clade flagging SNP's.   From what you know is there an STR marker that the two 159.2+ guys have in common that you don't?
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