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Author Topic: New SNP Downstream of L21  (Read 14459 times)
NealtheRed
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« on: September 08, 2009, 11:21:28 AM »

A member of the Leinster cluster just received his WTY results with a new (well, sort of) SNP being discovered: L159.

L159 is also present in I-M26 males, so that makes it extra interesting.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


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Jdean
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« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2009, 12:10:54 PM »

A member of the Leinster cluster just received his WTY results with a new (well, sort of) SNP being discovered: L159.

L159 is also present in I-M26 males, so that makes it extra interesting.

And consequently is already available in advanced orders.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2009, 12:21:43 PM »

That's correct.

Initial testing for L159 is being done by some members of the Leinster cluster. They're the closest to the participant's haplotype, so it should be interesting if they are to test positive for it.

Why would there be a parallel mutation in R-L21 and I-M26?
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Jdean
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« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2009, 03:36:11 PM »

Yes it is curious, L69 is also very close, could this area be more prone to mutations?
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2009, 04:00:00 PM »

Thomas Krahn suggests the mutation is stable enough that it may further change the Y-chromosomal tree, adding yet another layer.

Another member from the I2a clade also mentioned the stability of L159 within that haplogroup.

I guess we'll see as results come back, but it should be informative.
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Jdean
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« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2009, 04:07:50 PM »

Do you know what he means by this, is it possible to determine the likelihood of an SNP being non-private by analysing the DNA of  one person, I assumed that private SNPs were just more recent, and therefore only found in one or a couple of families.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2009, 04:17:42 PM »

Here is what Thomas Krahn wrote to Kirsten Saxe, one of the co-admins. for the Leinster group:

"Dear Kirsten,

L69 and L159 are "at the edge" between SNPs and STRs because they are right at a transition between a poly G stretch and a GT dinucleotide repeat. So we may expect a somewhat slower mutation frequency than a STR but a higher mutation frequency than a SNP.


This is what I wrote to Ken Nordtvedt when L159 was first discovered in haplogroup I:

L159 isn't only close to a STR but it is even part of the same dinucleotide STR as L69, just 2 bp downstream.  It is just an extension of the  Poly C region in the other direction. If you compare the DNA sequences  next to each other you will see what I mean:

AAACTGGGGGGGGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGCG (I-M26)[WTY participant and other I-M26 men]
AAACTGGGGGGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGCG (HUGO and most others)
AAACTGGGGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGCG (I-M423, GRC014676 G-L13, GRC000617 G-P18)
L69......^
L159.......^
(note that the GT repeat count may vary and is disregarded for the L96/L159 status)

From our experience with L69 I'd consider this as rather unstable for anthropological dimensions. However for the fine resolution within a haplogroup this may be of some limited value.

[Your participant] has exactly the same configuration as [the I-M26 participant]. So in deed I'd start looking into close relatives for ordering L159.2. Start with very close haplotypes and slowly expand to more distant matches as long as you get L159.2+ results. Other R-P312, R-L21, R-M222 WTY participants are L159.2 ancestral so far.
 
Thomas"
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2009, 05:15:55 PM »

.  
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2009, 07:50:34 PM »

A second member of the Leinster group just tested positive for L159. And here's the best part: he has a different surname.
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Jdean
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« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2009, 08:09:56 PM »

Ah Ha
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2009, 09:00:10 PM »

I guess there may be some credence to this. I will order the test over the weekend.
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rms2
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« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2009, 09:08:14 PM »

A second member of the Leinster group just tested positive for L159. And here's the best part: he has a different surname.

Interesting!

Hmmm . . .
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2009, 09:12:02 PM »

Yeah, I know!

The first to test positive is a Carmack whos deep ancestry is from eastern Ireland. The second positive for L159 is a Quilliam (FitzWilliam) with roots in the Isle of Man.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2009, 09:13:38 PM by NealtheRed » Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


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vtilroe
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« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2009, 02:09:55 AM »

A second member of the Leinster group just tested positive for L159. And here's the best part: he has a different surname.
Wow!  That's fantastic!
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Jdean
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« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2009, 09:34:08 AM »

Any guesses as to how old and widespread the Leinster Modal is.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2009, 09:43:38 AM by Jdean » Logged

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rms2
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« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2009, 01:39:32 PM »

I'm wondering if I should order it.

I'm not a Leinster Lagin guy, but I do tend to lean after a few lagers. ;-)
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2009, 08:38:15 PM »

Is there any hint of how far downstream it is from L21?  If its an Irish or isles specific much more recent SNP like M222 then it may do no more than provide an SNP for a local cluster - good news for people interested in the genealogical angle but not much use in terms of pre-isles origin. 

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2009, 08:40:06 PM »

how come nothing about this has been posted on rootsweb?  Seems a little odd and some of the pasted stuff about the marker seems to thow a little doubt about this SNP.  Is there any more info on this?
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2009, 09:43:01 PM »

The reason why it's not on any other forum is because I'm the only one who has posted the results on another web site other than the Leinster cluster site. I originally got word from the group administrator.

We actually have a couple of people who match the modal who are from northern France and Baden-Wurttemburg(Hoffenheim). I think it is especially interesting that L159.2 is present in I2a males as well.


Neal
« Last Edit: September 19, 2009, 09:44:24 PM by NealtheRed » Logged

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Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen
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« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2009, 11:29:41 PM »

France matches the path Ken stated in July of this year.

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/genealogy-dna/2009-07/1248039120
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cmblandford
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« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2009, 01:47:06 AM »

For $29.00 I can't stand the suspense.  Be the first on your block ..................
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2009, 10:44:07 AM »

It wouldn't hurt, especially since the second guy to test positive for L159.2 was not one of the closest matches to the WTY participant.

Nevertheless, we do have some Byrnes, Beattys and others testing for it already. I'm sure once more people test positive for L159.2 the sampling population will grow.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2009, 12:39:09 PM »

Yeah, I know!

The first to test positive is a Carmack whos deep ancestry is from eastern Ireland. The second positive for L159 is a Quilliam (FitzWilliam) with roots in the Isle of Man.
Do I have the right guys?
PAMN9 Carmack
A7STZ FitzWilliam/Quilliam

If I have the right guys, Carmack's MDKA is from Craven Cty, NC USA.  What is the Carmack Eastern Ireland tie?  What city/county?  is it fairly certain?
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2009, 02:51:19 PM »

The Carmack/Leinster connection is evident in his distance from the Leinster modal. He matches the known Leinster surnames: O'Byrne, Kavanaugh and Kinsella. I believe Carmack is also a derivative of the Irish McCormick, so in those regards it's pretty certain what area we're looking at.

Then you have FitzWilliam whose ancestry is from the Isle of Man. The cluster tends to aggregate around the areas of southern Scotland (Beattys), northern England and the known Leinster clans, although we have some continental matches in France and Germany.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2009, 03:06:02 PM »

The Carmack/Leinster connection is evident in his distance from the Leinster modal. He matches the known Leinster surnames: O'Byrne, Kavanaugh and Kinsella. I believe Carmack is also a derivative of the Irish McCormick, so in those regards it's pretty certain what area we're looking at.

Then you have FitzWilliam whose ancestry is from the Isle of Man. The cluster tends to aggregate around the areas of southern Scotland (Beattys), northern England and the known Leinster clans, although we have some continental matches in France and Germany.
Okay.  Carmack's documentation doesn't get him back to the Old World but his haplotype fits with the one that is named the Leinster Modal.

As far as haplotypes go...

These two L159+ plus guys are not off-modal on much in the way of slower mutating STR markers.  Of the slowest 30 of FTDNA's 67, one of the only two that either is off-WAMH is that PAMN9 Carmack is 531=12.  However A7STZ FitzWilliam/Quilliam is WAMH, which is 11.  The other location, DYS393, has FitzWilliam at 25 while Carmack is WAMH, which is 24.

Well, that just means that 531 and 393 are NOT (edit) that useful at predicting L159+.

Here are markers where these two match on, in order of slowest to fastest.
448=18, 389i=14, 557=17, 442=11, 446=14, 607=14, 570=18, 449=30
If you have much in common with these, then you should run and order the L159 test, IMHO.

It is interesting, at least according to my notes (which are just my notes - they could be wrong), is that Carmack is 464x=2c2g which is rare and fits a lot of people in the Leinister sub-group of Beatty/Byrnes/McLaughlin, et al folks.   However FitzWilliam is the more common 3c1g.   So if L159+ occurrs in both 2c2g and 3c1g L21+ folks, then it must have happened first... or FitzWilliam "back-mutated" at 464x?  Is that possible?

BTW, the FitzWilliam is a Norman surname, right?


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