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Author Topic: New SNP Downstream of L21  (Read 12040 times)
Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen
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« Reply #125 on: October 04, 2009, 11:09:04 PM »

You may have already looked at John McEwan's 464 page, but it is below. I simply thought I would throw it out there.   

http://www.geocities.com/mcewanjc/464x.htm

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Mark Jost
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« Reply #126 on: October 04, 2009, 11:38:07 PM »

Yes reviewed that page as well before. I match a few key markers with the 464 and 464X (14c 15c 17g 18c) with LarryDR. I sure would like to see his entire str and Hg.
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #127 on: October 06, 2009, 09:31:30 AM »

Another Beattie says they received an L159+ result.    The Leinster cluster appears to be solid L159+.    

I still get confused on the naming of this.   This isn't really THE modal for the "Leinster" geography, but rather the current center for many of these folks.  Some think it is representative of "Lagin Chieftains" which a part of it appear to be.
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2008-09/1220482508
I think the original identifier was Ken Nordtvedt.  Some originally called it the Irish Sea Modal.  There are folks from Scotland, Connacht, Ulster AND England in it (as well as Leinster of course) from what I can see, although all have not tested for L159 yet.

Any theories on the tribal origins of these "Leinster" men?
« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 09:36:21 AM by Mike » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
NealtheRed
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« Reply #128 on: October 06, 2009, 09:43:26 AM »

It is thought that the concentration in eastern Ireland and the western seaboard of Britain is due to Gaelic settlement. But to be honest, we don't know, especially if it splits the Irish L21.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 09:44:47 AM by NealtheRed » Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



cmblandford
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« Reply #129 on: October 06, 2009, 03:37:18 PM »

 
Quote
There are folks from Scotland, Connacht, Ulster AND England in it

If I read Bernard's WTY results correctly, he is also L21+ and L159+.  Bernard's earliest known ancestor is from France.
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Y-DNA:  R-DF13*


Surname Project:  Blandford

Kit:  ft115893   Ysearch:  EYSPZ


Earliest Known Ancestor:  Thomas Blanford; Dorset, England; born 1648


NealtheRed
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« Reply #130 on: October 06, 2009, 03:47:30 PM »

He's actually one of the few who are L159-. Thomas Krahn said all the other WTY participants were negative for it.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



Mike Walsh
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« Reply #131 on: October 06, 2009, 03:56:10 PM »

Quote
There are folks from Scotland, Connacht, Ulster AND England in it

If I read Bernard's WTY results correctly, he is also L21+ and L159+.  Bernard's earliest known ancestor is from France.
What is the key thing you are looking for to define L159.2+ in WTY?   I thought I read that Secher was L159- L69+, not L159+.. but somehow L69+ is related to L159.
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
Mark Jost
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« Reply #132 on: October 06, 2009, 04:04:18 PM »

I ask FtDNA to please explain the process of the 464X mutation process and they responded with the following.

"Hello,Thanks for your email.The mutation of gggg to cccg took place very early in R1b phylogeny, thousands of years before R-L21 developed.  Your results of ccgc fit exactly into what we would expect to see in most members of R1b.  Your order of c's and g's is ccgc because that is the order of the alleles, not because there is some deeper difference between cccg and ccgc.  If my answer did not address your question, please clarify and I can try to help you out.

Please let me know if you have any questions or if there's anything else I can do for you.

Thanks again,"
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
secherbernard
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« Reply #133 on: October 06, 2009, 04:07:10 PM »

Quote
There are folks from Scotland, Connacht, Ulster AND England in it

If I read Bernard's WTY results correctly, he is also L21+ and L159+.  Bernard's earliest known ancestor is from France.
What is the key thing you are looking for to define L159.2+ in WTY?   I thought I read that Secher was L159- L69+, not L159+.. but somehow L69+ is related to L159.
I confirm, I am L21+ L159- L69+

From Thomas Krahn:
In the case of L69+ the poly G is shortened from 6 to 4 bases and the
dinucleotid repeat gains one unit.
In the case of L159+ the poly G is elongated from 6 to 8 bases and the
dinucleotid repeat looses one unit.
This alignment of sequences may make this clearer:

AAACTGGGGGGGGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGCG (L69+)
AAACTGGGGGGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGCG (HUGO and most others)
AAACTGGGGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGCG (L159+)


Bernard
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YDNA: R-DF13+ L69+ DYS464X: cccc.3
mtDNA: U6a7a1
mtDNA of my father: U5a2c
YDNA of my maternal uncle: I1*
Ysearch and Mitosearch: UE9BU
Ysearch of my maternal uncle: CEC59

cmblandford
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« Reply #134 on: October 06, 2009, 05:33:39 PM »

Quote
I confirm, I am L21+ L159- L69+

I missread the explanation, thanks for the correction. 

I was interested in clarifying whether L159+ is limited to the Leinster cluster, at least for the testing so far, since this has significant implications in L21+ origins.
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Y-DNA:  R-DF13*


Surname Project:  Blandford

Kit:  ft115893   Ysearch:  EYSPZ


Earliest Known Ancestor:  Thomas Blanford; Dorset, England; born 1648


Mark Jost
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« Reply #135 on: October 06, 2009, 05:38:55 PM »

Anyone can order it but look under Advanced orders > SNP > I-M26 for the L159 test.
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
Mark Jost
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« Reply #136 on: October 06, 2009, 07:05:42 PM »

Appears that my 5th L21 Network cluster is turning L159+ so far. We'll see if anyone that does not have the DYS446=14 is always negative.
Logged

148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
Mark Jost
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« Reply #137 on: October 06, 2009, 08:23:59 PM »

Appears that my 5th L21 Network cluster is turning L159+ so far. We'll see if anyone that does not have the DYS446=14 is always negative.

And it doesnt included me.  I just went L159-
Logged

148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
NealtheRed
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« Reply #138 on: October 06, 2009, 08:29:30 PM »

Are you DYS446=14?
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



Mark Jost
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« Reply #139 on: October 06, 2009, 08:35:06 PM »

Yes I am. So it is down downstream from me, I am old stock.
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
cmblandford
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« Reply #140 on: October 06, 2009, 08:59:52 PM »

I just went L159- as well; I am also DYS446=14.
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Y-DNA:  R-DF13*


Surname Project:  Blandford

Kit:  ft115893   Ysearch:  EYSPZ


Earliest Known Ancestor:  Thomas Blanford; Dorset, England; born 1648


NealtheRed
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« Reply #141 on: October 06, 2009, 09:04:38 PM »

So far, the Leinster cluster is at 100% L159+, while 2 out of 2 continentals are L159- and now Mr. Blandford is L159-.

Both of you guys ordered later than me, but I still haven't received results.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



Mark Jost
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« Reply #142 on: October 06, 2009, 09:37:55 PM »

now we can sit back a wait for the L21 WTY results. They have a large group still to test.
Logged

148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
NealtheRed
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« Reply #143 on: October 06, 2009, 09:49:21 PM »

Does anyone know how many other guys are doing WTY testing for L21?
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



NealtheRed
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« Reply #144 on: October 06, 2009, 10:05:59 PM »

A Gaston, Byrne and a Foley have just gone L159+. One of our unclustered French, Hamon, went L159-.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



Mike Walsh
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« Reply #145 on: October 06, 2009, 11:33:24 PM »

Quote
There are folks from Scotland, Connacht, Ulster AND England in it

If I read Bernard's WTY results correctly, he is also L21+ and L159+.  Bernard's earliest known ancestor is from France.
What is the key thing you are looking for to define L159.2+ in WTY?   I thought I read that Secher was L159- L69+, not L159+.. but somehow L69+ is related to L159.
I confirm, I am L21+ L159- L69+

From Thomas Krahn:
In the case of L69+ the poly G is shortened from 6 to 4 bases and the
dinucleotid repeat gains one unit.
In the case of L159+ the poly G is elongated from 6 to 8 bases and the
dinucleotid repeat looses one unit.
This alignment of sequences may make this clearer:

AAACTGGGGGGGGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGCG (L69+)
AAACTGGGGGGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGCG (HUGO and most others)
AAACTGGGGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGCG (L159+)


Bernard
Is L69 something we should be looking at for more testing?  Did any others of the other L21+ WTY folks have L69+?   Can you order L69 on the advanced order menu?
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #146 on: October 06, 2009, 11:47:48 PM »

A Gaston, Byrne and a Foley have just gone L159+. One of our unclustered French, Hamon, went L159-.
Gaston must be NGGWH, right?
Is this the right Foley - 8XDZC ?
Which Byrne is it?  I assume he is one in the 464x project.
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
Jdean
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« Reply #147 on: October 07, 2009, 08:11:50 AM »

Is L69 something we should be looking at for more testing?  Did any others of the other L21+ WTY folks have L69+?   Can you order L69 on the advanced order menu?

Bernard's closest match in Ysearch is 13, and his closest confirmed L21 is 15, so it may be a bit tricky targeting potential candidates, he does have two off modal slow mutating markers though that may help, dys393=14 and dys594=11.

So far he is the only WTY candidate to come back with this, but it can be ordered from FTDNA as it's also been found in some I2a1 people

Does anyone know how many other guys are doing WTY testing for L21?

15 L21s have been approved but so far only 12 kits have been returned, of these we have 4 results in, 2 no show, L159 and now L69
« Last Edit: October 07, 2009, 08:26:33 AM by Jdean » Logged

Y-DNA R-DF49*
MtDNA J1c2e
Kit No. 117897
Ysearch 3BMC9

NealtheRed
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« Reply #148 on: October 07, 2009, 09:08:12 AM »

Mike, that Foley is the wrong one as ours has 14-30 at DYS389i and ii. The Gaston you have is correct.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



Mark Jost
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« Reply #149 on: October 07, 2009, 11:22:42 AM »

I noticed that FtDNA has added a bunch new SNP's to the R-L21 list. Anyone hear of some of these. (PS Only two show the discriptions on FtDNA's order page)

 R-L21 †  $99.00 *
This SNP (rs11799226) divides members of haplogroup R1b who are positive for rs34276300.

 L130  $29.00
Display Name: ChrY:6813503 
Ancestral: G 
Derived: A 
Phylogeny: Found within R-L21. Parallel to M222. 
Frequency: 


 L144  $29.00
Display Name: rs9306842 
Ancestral: A 
Derived: T 
Phylogeny: Found within R-L21. Parallel to M222. 
Frequency: 


 L192  $29.00
Display Name: ChrY:6813342 
Ancestral: C 
Derived: T 
Phylogeny: Found in a R-L21* person 
Frequency: 


 L193  $29.00
Display Name: ChrY:6813344 
Ancestral: G 
Derived: A 
Phylogeny: Found in a R-L21* person 
Frequency: 


 L195  $29.00
Display Name: ChrY:21120852 
Ancestral: del- 
Derived: ins+ 
Phylogeny: Found in one R-L21 person. Probably co-mutates with L144. HUGO unclear. 
Frequency: 


 L96  $29.00
Display Name: ChrY:13411850 
Ancestral: A 
Derived: G 
Phylogeny: Found within R-L21. Brother clade to all other published branches. 
Frequency: Possible Singleton. 

Logged

148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
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