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Author Topic: L21+ and U152+ in France and elsewhere  (Read 1940 times)
Mike Walsh
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« on: November 14, 2009, 09:46:08 AM »

I thought this was a classic (I didn't say classic what) so I am copying this in from Rootsweb. 

I get the feeling from reading this that there must be different "grades" of Celtics, ... just barely, basic, and full-blown glorious.  That's topic in and of itself.

Still, L21+ and U152+ are closely related and have a lot of overlap in there spread.  Are they different cultural expansions in different times or are they just different mixes of multiple tribes.. i.e. the west tribe had a higher % L21+ while the south tribe had a higher % U152 ?????
Quote from: DavidFaux
Alan,

I grant you that U152/S28 is very poorly represented in the north of France
and that L21 will vastly overtake their kindred haplogroup.  However, how
would you explain the lack of L21 in the areas documented by the Greeks and
Romans prior to Caesar, and known to them as Keltica.

The only group who fit Livy's description of the expansion from the
Bituriges region in Berry (Biruriges Cubi tribe) in Central France, circa
600 BC, is actually L20 which has also only been tested as of recently.
There are two L20 around Bourges, and the expansion is exactly as Livy
described re circa 600 BC so we see a cluster in Switzerland and Italy, and
a larger cluster (ascertainment bias?) in the area of Southern Germany.  L21
appears to have played no or little part in the circa 400 BC expansion of
the Gaulish Celts of Central France to the territory of the LePontic Celts
of Alpine Italy.  These included groups such as the Senones, Cennomani,
Sequani, Averni, and from the east the Boii as far south as Senia Gallia.
And of course the prototypic Celts were the Volcaes of Anatolia, Czech
Republic and Toulouse France.  Sorry, I failed to mention the unmistakably
Celtic Helvetti of Southern Germany then Switzerland.  The only R - related
haplogroup that fits all of these groups in terms of distribution is U152,
L2 and L20.

Gallia Cisalpine (south of the Alps) was well known to the Romans.  Less
well known until the time of Caesar was Gallia Transalpine (the other side
of the Alps), where the Gallia Comaticus - long haired Gauls - resided.  The
latter were somewhat hazy in the minds of the Romans and often mixed up with
Germania - but the Celts just north of Rome, it was these groups that
brought Rome to her knees in circa 390 BC and they would never forget who
humiliated them.  Rome knew nothing of the peoples of Gaul who lived along
or near the North Sea, at least not circa 400 BC.

Hence until the time of Caesar the Celtic speaking people of the north of
Gaul were little known to the Greeks and Romans.  In addition it appears
that areas such as Brittany and Belgium may have experienced a population
replacement that escaped Normandy.  Brittany was of course augmented circa
500 AD with the Britons escapting the arrival of the Anglo-Saxons (or only
the Anglo-Saxon elites from the eccentric views of archaeologists Pryor and
Wells and the Processural School).  The Belgae appear to have
arrived subsequent to the sacking of Delphi in 279 BC when the Scoridaci or
their allies (likely originally from Gaul) returned west and became the
Belgae (the gruesome archaeological remains on two sacrificicial sites
attest to their apparent bloodlust).  U152 etc. is well represented in this
 area.

Now, L21 was certainly in the picture but there is nothing in the present
pattern of distribution that would suggest anything beyond what is presently
observed - a far northwestern European Celtic speaking group whose
appearance in the present hotspots (especially Ireland) will be difficult to
date unless one accepts them by virtue of numbers alone as being aboriginal
to the area.  They were by no stretch of the imagination the Celts of which
the Greeks and Romans spoke, at least pre Julius Caesar.  I may be wrong of
course but L21 is going to have to find a greater representation in the
French Jura (for example) before your scenario can begin to knock their kin
U152 off the stage as being strongly linked to the broader Celtic world
from Portugal to Anatolia - not just the northwest.  Still we have much to
learn and the last word is an illusion and there could be many surprises
ahead - already the percentage of L21 found in France is something many of
us would found unlikely - now we know different.
David K. Faux.

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NealtheRed
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« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2009, 10:35:39 AM »

It's your classic, subjective analysis coming from Faucks.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2009, 10:56:32 AM »

Quote from: DavidFaux
...  L21 was certainly in the picture but there is nothing in the present
pattern of distribution that would suggest anything beyond what is presently
observed - a far northwestern European Celtic speaking group whose
appearance in the present hotspots (especially Ireland) will be difficult to
date unless one accepts them by virtue of numbers alone as being aboriginal
to the area.  They were by no stretch of the imagination the Celts of which
the Greeks and Romans spoke, at least pre Julius Caesar. 
I wonder how many people don't examine what people say for fallacies. Hopefully not many, especially when watching/reading the "objective" reporting.

Color commentary -> L21 is characterized as a "far" NW group and as Celtic "speaking", not necessarily really Celtic.

Parsing at the extreme, even given self-contradiction -> L21 are not the "Celts of" the "Greeks and Romans" but then adds "at least pre Julius Caesar".  Craziness! Was not Julius Caesar an important enough Roman to count? and did not Rome still have another 400 year run at being the "the" empire?  and is our definition of Celtic limited only to what is written by a people who were remote to them and didn't understand them and could only roughly map the territory, pre-Caesar?
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2009, 11:22:43 AM »

Faucks is dismissing a lot of evidence that contradicts what he is saying. He is looking for every last avenue possible to dismiss L21's presence in Celtic lands, and has this view of racial superiority of U152 as the pre-eminent Celtic subclade.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2009, 11:25:59 AM by NealtheRed » Logged

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rms2
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« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2009, 11:56:38 AM »

I've had my share of run-ins with David, but he has tempered his approach quite a bit and was even willing to admit in a later post that we still don't know everything. He even responded somewhat positively when I wrote that I think L21 and U152 are two sides of the same Celtic coin, which began with a P312+ Italo-Celtic population.

Let's face it: L21 and U152 are "brother clades". They are both sons of P312 and were born very close together in time and in the same general vicinity, L21 being the more northerly of the siblings.

It's a shame P312 wasn't found first and given some time to be thought out before U152 came along. U106 had that advantage. It was found first (as S21), well before its subclades, so that people were seeing it as one thing, and still see it that way, before the parsing into its various subclades began.

We haven't had that luxury with P312 and its divisions, so almost nobody looks for the common ground in P312 and its children.

« Last Edit: November 14, 2009, 11:57:57 AM by rms2 » Logged

alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2009, 12:20:09 PM »

I think in Gaul  the division of France into four great major rivers systems was reflected in ancient political divisions and perhaps clade count may have been deeply effected by this too.  http://www.freeworldmaps.net/europe/france/map.html

The huge Loire and Seine systems which reach from north and north-west into the centre dominate almost all of the northern half and part of central France.  The same rivers' lower reaches have plenty of L21 so it makes sense that the upper reaches of the same rivers also have L21 even though testing has not really taken place there yet to any degree.  The combined watershed of these two great systems runs (very roughly) from Strasbourg to La Rochelle/Bordeaux (which literally divides France in two) although the Loire system actually also extends beyond this into the Massive Central of south-central France.  Everything north of that line is accessed by the Loire and Seine river systems. These two systems dominated Gallia Celtica. Indeed it strikes me they may have defined it.  

The more I think about it, the more Gaul seems divided into its major parts by four river systems.   The huge Seine/Loire system dominated Celtica.  The other two great river systems, the Rhone and the Garrone systems may have defined the other parts of Gaul.  The great Garonne system seems to relate largely to the Aquitani's lands.  The Rhone system clearly opposes the Loire/Seine one and indeed is the only major system that reaches into France from the south (SE).  I think it was the basis of Gallia Narbonesis.  Belgica mainly relates to the north-east area that lay beyond the Loire/Seine system and related to the Lower Rhine, and rivers that flowed west and south from it like the Meuse.  Celtica only linked to the Rhine to the south around about Luxembourg and the Mosselle.    

There must be at least a suspicion that this might be reflected in clade trends. I am not talking about anything like absolutes but just trends caused by natural lines of communication and cultural/political contact/flow.   This is just a guess but perhaps the Rhone (which is near to Switzerland) will have a high U152 count and the Garrone system will have a higher S116* and perhaps Iberian type clade count.  

The one common thread between the river systems of Celtica, Belgica and Narbonesis was that all of them bordered part of the Rhine (something that Aquitania didn’t). I suspect that L21 occurred at a point where it was well placed to move into the Seine and Loire systems but not the Rhone or Garonne systems or the rivers flowing west from the Lower Rhine into Belgium and NE France.  That points to the middle Rhine and the Mosselle.  Interestingly, an arrival into France from the Middle Rhine via the Mosselle and into the upper reaches of the Seine and Loire first (crossing the small watersheds between them) seems to be exactly what happened when Linearbandkeramik entered France.

It will be interesting to see whether the hints of clade trends linked to the major divisions of Gaul (in turn linked to major river systems) become clearer as testing improves.  If L21’s strength is based on the Loire/Seine river systems then it should be:

1. Dominant north of the Bordeaux-Strasbourg line and even a little south into the fringes of the Massive Central.  L21 should extend via the Mosselle into Luxemburg and SW Germany at the middle Rhine and perhaps touch the northern fringes of Switzerland via the Rhine.

2. Weak in the NE extremity of France and Belgium beyond the Loire/Seine systems of Celtica.  Ir should also be weak in the Garonne system that dominates SW France and also in the south and south-east along the Rhone.  


Remarkably, so far, that is exactly what it is doing although the poorer sampling in the eastern half of the area makes L21 look more NW weighted than it probably really is.  The lesson from this is that we should probably expect L21 in areas within the Seine/Loire system that have no yet been sampled. What is going to be of interest is if the real scarcity of L21 in the Aquitanian, Narbonian and Belgic areas is maintained or is just down to sampling bias.  If it was, that would be a really remarkable thing.  Problem is to establish that would require a painful sequence of negative results from the proposed low-L21 area.    Possibly less painful and just as important would be to seek L21 testing in the poorer sampled part of the likely high L21 area defined above.  That would be less painful and more achievable in terms of funds and would also IMO remove the likely false impression that L21 is a north-western rather than simply ‘northern half of France’.  That would make sense as I cannot see on a small European scale the lower reaches of the Seine and Loire having a lot of L21 while the upper reaches does not.  We are not talking about the Nile here so huge cultural differences along the same river are not to be expected.        
« Last Edit: November 14, 2009, 12:20:38 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2009, 01:28:24 PM »

I tried to point out to him that the main wealthiest La Tene chiefdoms were in a band that ran from Champagne through the Mosselle to the Rhineland then through Germany to Bohemia.  In that band, the only well tested region is the Rhineland.  In the Rhineland L21 already is much more common than S28 despite its big head start.  If numbers of descendants means nobility in the past then L21 was the most powerful lineage in the only adequately sampled (for all clades) part of the La Tene heartland.

IMO, U152/S28 can only lay claim that it was important in the band of Alpine or near-Alpine Europe where the wealthy chiefdoms of the Hallstatt D period were located.  These chiefdoms near the Alps were wealthy in the Hallstatt D period through trade with the Med through the Alpine passes. However, this trade collapsed it the early La Tene period and the alpine tribes then followed the old trade routes through the Alpine passes into Italy and also eastwards to raid and settle.  I think there is a good case that the U152 lines may have grown during this period of Hallstatt D wealth and the same lineages came to Italy etc during the fallout after they suffered a trade systems collapse but any superior claim on the Early La Tene heartland area to the north is not supported IMO.  In fact the Rhineland evidence suggests L21 is much more common there.

I would like to play devils advocate.  There is no question that L21 is associated with the Celtic languages.  Its heavy presence across much of Celtic Gaul and in every nook and cranny of the isles down to every small Hebridean rock attests its ancientness.  HOWEVER, U152 has no such certainty.  Certainly it seems a little more eastern with its Swiss, Alpine German and Belgic concentrations close to the eastern edge of the main block of the Celtic world.  I personally feel that it is not absolutely impossible that its spread could be a west Germanic one related to Suevi, Allemani, Franks etc.  Its distribution certainly does not present the open-shut case for a deeper prehistoric origin that L21 does. 

Again, I think if we had a very good map of R1n1b2 France, things may become clear.  If, for example, U152 is revealed as predominantly concentrated in Alpine Germany, the Rhine, Switzerland, SE France and NE France/Belgium but only scattered elsewhere in France, then its Celticisity must be looked at again. Could it be south/west Germanic?  Unlike L21, I don’t see any absolutely open-shut case in its present distribution that its current spread is pre-Roman in origin.  It seems concentrated in the fringes of the Celtic world where the Germans started to make early inroads.  On the project maps it does seem fairly common beyond known Celtic territory in northern Holland.  In south Holland you get L21, S28 and S21 but in north Holland you get S21 and also a significant amount of S28 in an area where it is not thought Celts ever lived.  It feels somehow that S28 lies sequentially between L21 and S21. I get the feeling that S28 might possibly have been common among Germanic tribes living close to the German side of the Rhine/Main ethnic/imperial border.  Its just an alternative but I do not see it as a weaker one than the early Celtic one. 

 
 
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2009, 02:33:18 PM »

You know, why would L21 be pre-U152 when they both spread at about the same time? It doesn't make any sense.

I buy the argument that L21 was the more prominent, northern extension of the Celtic people rather than some remnant of the Paleolithic.
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« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2009, 03:16:21 PM »

I tried to point out to him that the main wealthiest La Tene chiefdoms were in a band that ran from Champagne through the Mosselle to the Rhineland then through Germany to Bohemia.  In that band, the only well tested region is the Rhineland.  In the Rhineland L21 already is much more common than S28 despite its big head start.  If numbers of descendants means nobility in the past then L21 was the most powerful lineage in the only adequately sampled (for all clades) part of the La Tene heartland.

IMO, U152/S28 can only lay claim that it was important in the band of Alpine or near-Alpine Europe where the wealthy chiefdoms of the Hallstatt D period were located.  These chiefdoms near the Alps were wealthy in the Hallstatt D period through trade with the Med through the Alpine passes. However, this trade collapsed it the early La Tene period and the alpine tribes then followed the old trade routes through the Alpine passes into Italy and also eastwards to raid and settle.  I think there is a good case that the U152 lines may have grown during this period of Hallstatt D wealth and the same lineages came to Italy etc during the fallout after they suffered a trade systems collapse but any superior claim on the Early La Tene heartland area to the north is not supported IMO.  In fact the Rhineland evidence suggests L21 is much more common there.

I would like to play devils advocate.  There is no question that L21 is associated with the Celtic languages.  Its heavy presence across much of Celtic Gaul and in every nook and cranny of the isles down to every small Hebridean rock attests its ancientness.  HOWEVER, U152 has no such certainty.  Certainly it seems a little more eastern with its Swiss, Alpine German and Belgic concentrations close to the eastern edge of the main block of the Celtic world.  I personally feel that it is not absolutely impossible that its spread could be a west Germanic one related to Suevi, Allemani, Franks etc.  Its distribution certainly does not present the open-shut case for a deeper prehistoric origin that L21 does.  

Again, I think if we had a very good map of R1n1b2 France, things may become clear.  If, for example, U152 is revealed as predominantly concentrated in Alpine Germany, the Rhine, Switzerland, SE France and NE France/Belgium but only scattered elsewhere in France, then its Celticisity must be looked at again. Could it be south/west Germanic?  Unlike L21, I don’t see any absolutely open-shut case in its present distribution that its current spread is pre-Roman in origin.  It seems concentrated in the fringes of the Celtic world where the Germans started to make early inroads.  On the project maps it does seem fairly common beyond known Celtic territory in northern Holland.  In south Holland you get L21, S28 and S21 but in north Holland you get S21 and also a significant amount of S28 in an area where it is not thought Celts ever lived.  It feels somehow that S28 lies sequentially between L21 and S21. I get the feeling that S28 might possibly have been common among Germanic tribes living close to the German side of the Rhine/Main ethnic/imperial border.  Its just an alternative but I do not see it as a weaker one than the early Celtic one.  

  
 

I think the most unfortunate legacy from Faux and his advocates was his determination to neatly divide R1b subclades into Celtic and Germanic divisions. Since it seems highly likely that R1b subclades such as L21 and U152, and certainly the parent P312 group, expanded across various parts of Europe long before the division of Europe between Celts and Germanics, I think these efforts are doomed to failure and likely to be counterproductive. While I don't believe all R1b subclades were uniformly distributed amingst the Celtic and Germanic worlds, I think it is quite likely that some of these subclades had an element in both.  In terms of your thoughts above, why couldn't U152 have been present both amongst the La Tene as well as the Franks and Suevii?
What I find most amusing about Faux's remarks quoted above is his description of L21 as aboriginal. Some things never change.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2009, 03:25:45 PM by GoldenHind » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2009, 03:44:58 PM »

You know, I missed the "aboriginal" remark when I first read his post. Guess I was skimming more than really reading.

It's a good thing. Had I seen that, I probably would have blown my stack and written something nasty.

Now I regret the charitable feelings I was entertaining toward the man.

Still doing the "Master Clade" thing.

Sigh . . .
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2009, 04:32:04 PM »

I remember vaguely seeing the last leg of your arguments on another forum; that's when I first got into DNA testing. It was not pretty.
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« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2009, 04:44:56 PM »

I remember vaguely seeing the last leg of your arguments on another forum; that's when I first got into DNA testing. It was not pretty.

No, better not to go there again.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2009, 09:20:00 PM »

Yes its possible that S28 was common on both sides of the Rhine.  Its really just guesswork.  In fact I really just posted the idea that the spread of S28 into the areas it is now big in could be Germanic to point out the uncertainty.  However, L21 has a distibution that very much shows it is pre-Germanic and pre-Roman in its current distibution.

As for 'aboriginal' that is nonsense condering that the MRCA dates make them the same age.  They are very close contemporaries in origin.  That seems to be a throwback to the ideas when there was S21, S28 and the test was plain old M269.  That is clearly not sustainable now.  

There is no evidence I am aware of of a new Celtic wave in the Iron Age moving across the Rhine/Main line into the east of Gaul on a broad front from the Swiss Alps to Belgium and overlaying or displacing the older locals.  That is the gist of what seems to be being suggested.  However, that does sound remarkably like the early infiltration of south and west Germans across the Rhine and Main and into the fringes of the Celtic lands and the Roman empire.    
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2009, 09:30:56 PM »

In the Germanic scenario, S28 would have mainly been in central Germany until the last century or so BC when a slow process of several centuries of infiltration of Germanic tribes started to cross the nearby Rhine/Main boundary. 

Alternatively, this is all nonsense and L21 and S28 and other clades in fact moved around in a mixed group where proportions of each came to vary locally by chance.  It really is so uncertain there is no way anyone can put a scenario as anything other than speculation.   
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2009, 11:38:16 AM »

In the Germanic scenario, S28 would have mainly been in central Germany until the last century or so BC when a slow process of several centuries of infiltration of Germanic tribes started to cross the nearby Rhine/Main boundary. 

Alternatively, this is all nonsense and L21 and S28 and other clades in fact moved around in a mixed group where proportions of each came to vary locally by chance.  It really is so uncertain there is no way anyone can put a scenario as anything other than speculation.   
I tend to think it is the latter, that L21 and S28 (U152) were in various Celtic tribes in different proportions according to each tribe.  My reasoning is there is a lot of overlap and they both arose nearly simultaneously.  As RMS2 noted earlier, they are both P312.  We should really consider all of P312 as a whole and then its subclades in context. 
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« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2009, 03:16:25 PM »

You know, I missed the "aboriginal" remark when I first read his post. Guess I was skimming more than really reading.

It's a good thing. Had I seen that, I probably would have blown my stack and written something nasty.

Now I regret the charitable feelings I was entertaining toward the man.

Still doing the "Master Clade" thing.

Sigh . . .
Obviously you are ignoring the fact that classical writers always made a distinction between the obviously U152 "Über-Celts" and the L21 "aboriginal Celts."
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« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2009, 03:32:05 PM »


Obviously you are ignoring the fact that classical writers always made a distinction between the obviously U152 "Über-Celts" and the L21 "aboriginal Celts."

I know you are kidding, but that is really, in effect, what he maintains. Yet I have pointed out excerpts from classical writers where they do in fact refer to the inhabitants of the British Isles as Celts. Such excerpts are ignored.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2009, 04:59:20 PM »

If anything, the idea of a major difference between isles or Atlanic 'Celticised' aborigones and 'real' central European or Gaulish Celts has been destroyed by the discovery of S116 and L21 and the identical MRCA dates calculated.  Morever, the finding that L21 is common in the old Gaulish lands has removed the idea that there were major differences between the isles 'Celtic fringe' and the Gauls at all.  L21 has also demolished the very trendy (in the last decade) idea that the Atlantic coasts of the isles and the Atlantic coasts of Iberia were linked and occupied by Atlantic Celticised \aboriginal peoples who were different from the Gauls.  People were so vehement about the Atlantic Celts idea even inyo this year but now it has been completely exploded.  THe real connection the Atlantic parts of the isles had with the continent would seem to have been with the northern half of Gaul.  It seems that in order to save the old real Celts vs Celticised aborigines idea that the division has mentally simply been moved from the one that ran along the Pyrennees to the Orkneys to one that cuts through Gaul itself. I think even that new mental line has only been possible to conjure because of the unavoidable biase to the NW in the French sample tested for L21.  This seems like clutching at straws and is an unfortunate but predictable result of the problem getting significant amounts of people to test for L21 in the centre and east of France.   
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« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2009, 02:51:40 AM »

Hello,
There are two or three things that make me think that L21 is more present in the NW than in the NE of France
1) Much L21 in the NW than in the NE, but agree, the sample is biased because those who have been tested through the French dna project (thank  to Richard for his effort) are mainly from the west.
    I would also like to point out that there was a strong Emmigration of Alsace and northern Lorraine (region called Alsace-Lorraine under German occupation) in the late nineteenth century to the United States, but apparently very few have joined the French DNA project.

2) And it seems that there are not many other sub-clades known in the NW.

All this seems logical since the British  islands, particularly in Ireland, there is hardly that of L21.
The L21 was probably first arrived in the north-west of Gaul and crossed the Channel.
The other sub-clades are probably came later, but could only partially meet the Atlantic coast and may not have crossed the Channel.
But they were mixed populations of eastern Gaul, which could explain the likely variability of sub-clades in eastern
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« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2009, 06:27:03 AM »

One bad effect that single testing of L21 instead of full deep clade testing (mainly in the north-west) is that the c. 50% who are L21 positive appear on the L21 map BUT those who are L21 negative mainly remain in unresolved R1b1b2 limbo and do not appear on any of the project maps and will remain so until they have further tested for U152, U106, S116 etc. This means they remain unmapped.  This non-mapping means that in the well tested NW of France, L21 appears even more dominant on the project maps than it is.  That is an illusion and it must be remembered that the recent L21 testing did indicate that a considerable portion of L21 in even NW France was L21 negative although it remains unresolved R1b1b2 and therefore unmapped.  However, this is a matter of economics and progress in L21 testing would be a lot slower if it was not for the much cheaper stand alone L21 tests.

I think the most important thing to come out of the recent testing is how much more is learned by testing a blind sample from a given area than will ever be learned through the generally biased self-testing.  I think for France the aim should be to extend similar blind testing of L21 into the poorer tested areas of France to see what the hit rate is there based on a larger sample.  Once we have a hit rate for the east, south-east, south-west etc we will have a much better picture of the reality of L21. 
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« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2009, 06:39:45 AM »

Jerome

That is interesting about Alsace and Lorraine.  I wondered why there were few L21 people recorded there.  The adjacent German Rhineland has more L21 than any other clade.  So, I always thought that the Alsace and Lorraine must have plenty L21 too.  As you posted, here just seems to be a problem with getting people from that area to test.  Maybe the history French-German mixture and conflict makes DNA testing a sensative subject in Alsace and Lorraine.  

I think it is a priority to test for L21 in Alsace and Lorraine if it is ever possible, as well as regions like Centre, Champagne, Burgundy where I suspect we will get a reasonable amount of L21.  It would also be interesting to see of the Belgic north-east areas oif France beyond the Seine system like Picardy and Pays de Calets conform to the apparent low L21 count in Belgium although clearly that would be more painful in terms of funds    
« Last Edit: November 16, 2009, 06:49:10 AM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
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« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2009, 09:11:47 AM »

Had it not been for the generous donations of R-L21 Plus Project members (like Alan, among others), we would not know near what we know now, and France especially would still be shrouded in a sort of genetic fog that is now only just beginning to clear.

Unfortunately the current Brabant (Belgium) Project is not testing for L21. So far the testing has taken place only in the Flemish part (I understand the testing of Walloon Brabant starts next year), but even there, where U106 is the prevalent form of R1b1b2, P312+ is running 19-20% (of R1b1b2, I believe). Some of that could be L21+, but we don't know because they are not testing for it (the downside of being a latecomer). U152, I think, is running at about 7% of R1b1b2 in Flemish Brabant.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2009, 09:21:19 AM by rms2 » Logged

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