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rms2
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« on: September 06, 2009, 01:55:25 PM »

Okay, now a Greek R-L21* is showing up on my "Haplotree/My Matches" page (under "4-Step Mutations").

I don't know who he is, but I will try to recruit him for the R-L21 Plus Project.

Cool!
« Last Edit: September 06, 2009, 02:15:54 PM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2009, 03:20:34 PM »

Okay, now a Greek R-L21* is showing up on my "Haplotree/My Matches" page (under "4-Step Mutations").

I don't know who he is, but I will try to recruit him for the R-L21 Plus Project.

Cool!

I have emailed FTDNA and asked them to contact this man and invite him to join the R-L21 Plus Project.

If by some chance he shows up here and sees this thread, I hope he will use the link below to join the project, which is free. We would be very happy indeed to have him as a member.

http://www.familytreedna.com/group-join-request.aspx?group=R-L21Plus

He should also join the Greek DNA Project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Greece/default.aspx?section=yresults
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2009, 05:08:32 PM »

That was unexpected, Rich.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



rms2
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« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2009, 06:31:59 PM »

That was unexpected, Rich.

Yeah, it was, but maybe we'll start to see some R-L21* in the Balkans . . . maybe not that much, but some.

We already have one from Croatia.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2009, 09:02:50 AM »

I would be very surprised, given the lack of L21 elsewhere along the Med, if the L21 SNP actually first occured that far east.  So, its tempting to join the many folks who will connect this to the Celtic campaigns there that led to the sack of Delphi, although there are undoubtedly many other possible scenarios too that could have brought a NW European clade to SE Europe. 
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rms2
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« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2009, 09:38:42 AM »

I would be very surprised, given the lack of L21 elsewhere along the Med, if the L21 SNP actually first occured that far east.  So, its tempting to join the many folks who will connect this to the Celtic campaigns there that led to the sack of Delphi, although there are undoubtedly many other possible scenarios too that could have brought a NW European clade to SE Europe.  

That is what I am thinking, too. I also tend to attribute our Croatian R-L21* to the Celtic Scordisci tribe that once inhabited that region.

Of course, like you said, there are many other possible scenarios.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2009, 09:39:05 AM by rms2 » Logged

alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2009, 11:18:54 AM »

I was recently puzling over what Celtic tribes were involved on the Italy invasion and the eastwards march in the late Iron Age and whether we really should expect much L21 to have been involved.  Were these tribes from the L21 areas?  I got the impression that most were from southern Gaul and the Danubian areas rather than the north of Gaul and I am not sure if the tribes involved overlapped with the L21 area of eastern France, maybe a little.  I would need to look at this properly but my impression is that L21 would not have been at all common among the tribes that invaded Italy but there may be a minor representation among those who headed east.  I need to look into this closer though.
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rms2
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« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2009, 01:40:48 PM »

I was recently puzling over what Celtic tribes were involved on the Italy invasion and the eastwards march in the late Iron Age and whether we really should expect much L21 to have been involved.  Were these tribes from the L21 areas?  I got the impression that most were from southern Gaul and the Danubian areas rather than the north of Gaul and I am not sure if the tribes involved overlapped with the L21 area of eastern France, maybe a little.  I would need to look at this properly but my impression is that L21 would not have been at all common among the tribes that invaded Italy but there may be a minor representation among those who headed east.  I need to look into this closer though.

Italy is a puzzler for me, as well. We have one actual Italian R-L21* thus far. The other one who traces his most distant y-dna ancestor to Italy appears to be more French than Italian.

I think L21 will eventually show up in Northern Italy at a fair frequency. There are Italian names (some with Italian email addresses) that show up on the Y-DNA Matches pages of R-L21 Plus Project members. Probably not all of them are L21+, but surely some of them must be. It's just a matter of getting them tested. Unfortunately, Italians don't seem to be lining up to order the Deep Clade-R these days.

I hesitate to mention this, but there is a northern Italian guy with the surname Bolgeri (YSearch DG5V7) currently awaiting Deep Clade-R results (due September 28) whose closest matches in Ysearch are R-L21*. Of course, he has some U152+ guys not too much further off, so he could go either way or even R-P312*, I guess.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2009, 01:41:39 PM by rms2 » Logged

alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2009, 05:57:05 PM »

I looked at the Cis Alpine (Italy) Celtic tribes again.  To really look into this would take some time but it does appear they were mainly from the south and south-east of Gaul, which makes perfect geographical sense given that they entered Italy by the NW passes.  However, there was a much smaller element which had names which might suggest a more northerly Gaulish element. So, it is possible that the SE element may have overlapped a little with the east Gaulish L21 area while its also possible that a smaller element from the more L21 rich north of Gaul may have been included.  However, the general impresssion I get is that overall L21 may have been a small minority element of the mainly southern Gaulish tribes who left for Italy.  So, I would guess we maybe should expect some L21 there but not a lot. Its rarity may simply be down to the parts of Gaul the tribes left from.   I need to brush up on the Celtic treck east.  I used to know a lot about it but I most of it has gone I am afraid. 
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vineviz
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« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2009, 08:11:19 AM »

I would be very surprised, given the lack of L21 elsewhere along the Med, if the L21 SNP actually first occured that far east.  So, its tempting to join the many folks who will connect this to the Celtic campaigns there that led to the sack of Delphi, although there are undoubtedly many other possible scenarios too that could have brought a NW European clade to SE Europe. 
I caution against being too quick to associate frequency directly with age.  The relative infrequency of L21 in the Italian and Iberian penensuale is interesting, but it doesn't really reflect one way or the other on the Balkan peninsula.  Of course one Greek L21 doesn't put the origin in Greece:  that'd be a silly inference.  But those "many folks" on the Celtic bandwagon have been wrong more than they've been right, so I'd be reluctant to join up with them willingly.

VV
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2009, 04:35:26 AM »

I agree that looking at one period that just so happens to be at the point where written history commences as THE period which explains DNA distribution is a bad habit.  I think that ignores the likely fact that we are only hearing about these movements because of this circumstance.  There is the same tendency to use the sub-Roman period to explain modern DNA distribution.  Again, it is interesting that out of 10000+ years of human settlement, the two periods where the light of history happens to shine when there was no imperial control on movement are used to explain so much, whereas the 90-odd% of time when that wasnt the case is ignored.

I do however feel that if L21 was a major clade in Greece or the south Balkans from say Neolithic times onwards, it would have been carried along with the various westward waves along the Med from the Caridal Neolithic to the Iron Age Greek settlements.  I tend to think that unlike S116, the L21 SNP would seem to have occured somewhere to the north where it was not in the path of the east-west movements along the Med.  If I had to guess, I think L21 happened somewhere along the Danube between the Black Sea and the Danube-Rhine headwater area. I do not think testing of central Europe east of Germany is good enough to work out where yet.     
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rms2
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« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2009, 08:20:02 PM »

I was able to deduce the 12-marker haplotype of our Greek R-L21*.

It is:

13..24..14..11..11..14..12..12..11..13..13..29

I did that by comparing the haplotype of a member who is an 11/12 match with the Greek, a member who is a 9/12 match with the Greek, and my own haplotype, which is an 8/12 match with the Greek.

I know I got it right, too, because I found a member who is 12/12 with the Greek R-L21*, and that is his 12-marker haplotype.

Unfortunately, the Greek R-L21* still has not joined the R-L21 Plus Project yet.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 08:20:48 PM by rms2 » Logged

Mark Jost
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« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2009, 01:38:20 PM »

13..24..14..11..11..14..12..12..11..13..13..29

I did that by comparing the haplotype of a member who is an 11/12 match with the Greek, a member who is a 9/12 match with the Greek, and my own haplotype, which is an 8/12 match with the Greek.

I have a Greek at GD 2. Must be the same guy.

R1b1b2a1b5  Greece  -  1 

My first 12: 13 24 15 11 12 14 12 12 11   13 13 29
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
rms2
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« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2009, 07:06:33 PM »

Must be. He's the only confirmed Greek R-L21* I know of. he still hasn't joined, even though FTDNA sent him an email inviting him.

That happens a lot. We have Dutch, Danish, Swiss and now Greek R-L21*s out there who don't want to join the project for some reason.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 07:07:50 PM by rms2 » Logged

seevargr
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« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2009, 12:09:45 PM »

Just because there seems to be a connection between L21+ and Celtic-ness or Gaulishness doesn't mean that the carrier of that L21+ into Greece was a Celt or Gaul when he arrived in Greece. 

Many Norman mercenaries from areas high in L21+ frequency served in Byzantine armies (the Byzantines called them Keltoi, interestingly enough), and the Normans who took Sicily rampaged back and forth across the Balkans.  The Crusaders who didn't sail to the Holy Land walked, across the Balkans.  Heck, this Greek guy could be a descendant of Lord Byron!  Or, a foreign soldier from WWII, though I daresay that might be an NPE and unpleasant to mention.   Anyway, my point is that the pressence of L21+ in Greece has alot more explanations than the sack of Delphi, or even the cosmopolitanism of the Roman era.
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L2- L20- L21+ M153- M222- M37- P312+ P66- SRY2627- U152-  R1b1b2a1b5
mt Haplogroup H
H8G4P on ysearch and mito.
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« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2009, 12:15:58 PM »

....  Anyway, my point is that the pressence of L21+ in Greece has alot more explanations than the sack of Delphi, or even the cosmopolitanism of the Roman era.
It would help to know a specific location for this guy's MDKA.  For instance, some of the Greek Isles had Venetian settlements from the days of Marco Polo and the trading network and colonies the Venetians set up.
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
rms2
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« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2009, 12:53:11 PM »

I had FTDNA send him an email and ask him to join the project, but he has not responded.

That happens a lot, by the way.
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