The R1b1* which generated R-P297 and R-M269

[Maliclavelli]

Among the R1b1* groups, listed in the Argiedude’s spreadsheet, probably the closest to R-M269 is the group A2.
They are above all Spaniards and Jews, at least I suppose not being able to access to their personal data. As I think that Jews are of Spanish origin, we have probably the Spaniards of the Cantabrian refugium.
I invite Argiedude to add to his spreadsheet this haplotype from Marche (Italy): Valerio Onofri et alii, Y-chromosome genetic structure in sub-Apennine populations of Central Italy by SNP and STR analysis, Int J Legal  Med (2007), ht 135:
DYS393=13
DYS390=24
DYS19= 15
DYS391=11
DYS385=12-13
DYS439=13
DYS389.1=13
DYS392=13
DYS389.2=29
DYS458=14
DYS437=15
DYS448=18
DYSH4=11 (20)
DYS438=11
DYS635=24
DYS456=15

[Maliclavelli]

This was the mail I sent to the person in hand and didn't receive any answer.

R1b1‏
Da:    Gioiello Tognoni (gioiellotognoni@hotmail.it)
Inviato:   domenica 14 ottobre 2007 12.24.13
A:    Vincenz Vizachero (vincent@vizachero.com)
       1 allegato   
   Vizachero...jpg (29,3 KB)


 
 
Dear Vizzachero,
I don’t know if you know the R1b1 (tested P25+ and M269-)  of the paper of Valerio Onofri et alii, Y-chromosome genetic structure in sub-Apennine populations of Central Italy by SNP and STR analysis, Int J legal Med (2007) 121: 234-237. It matches your R1b1 group 3, and it is intermediate between western Europeans (EWCVE) and East Europeans (UDHAC/363WV). I invite you to exam my theory of the Italian refugium. Do you know other R1b1b out of Italy?
Cordiali saluti, Gioiello Tognoni

[Maliclavelli]

Unfortunately SMGF is releasing its results like a little scrap of bread, but I have other values of Toniolo (VXK5N), who, more than R1b1*, seems R1b1b (L389+/V88-) , on the line that will conduct to R1b1b1 and  R1b1b2, as I have already hypothesized in the past with his YCAII=18-22, ancestor of the modal for R1b1b2 I have hypothesized =18-23 more than 19-23.

Now it is promising to be an Italian cluster with the above mentioned individual tested in the Marche:

Marche                              Toniolo
DYS393=13                        13
DYS390=24                        22
DYS19= 15                         15
DYS391=11                        11
DYS385=12-13                   12-13
DYS439=13                        12
DYS389.1=13                     14
DYS392=13                        13
DYS389.2=29                     30
DYS458=14                        14
DYS437=15                        14
DYS448=18                        18
DYSH4=11 (20)                  11
DYS438=11                        11
DYS635=24                        24
DYS456=15                          -

[Maliclavelli]

An interesting ad new R1b1b also from England: 5M82P (Nevill). See also VFHRW from Ireland, but same surnames. This haplotype isn't on the Vizachero spreadsheet, even though VFHRW is tested from FTDNA. Probably it isn't on the line that generated R1b1b1 and R1b1b2, but that demonstrates the richness and the ancientness  of the European haplotypes.