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Author Topic: Iberian L21 = House of Bourbon?  (Read 1101 times)
pcusack1
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« on: August 17, 2009, 10:20:38 PM »

There is a Bourbon on Y Search (9TUPN) who is an S28.  I was trying to figure out if he could possibly be of the Royal Bourbon line.

I came across a website www.iberianroots.com that has the alleles for Iberian L21's. I put them in Y Search (HW3FM). There are various valuesfor the alleles. I used the best match.

When I compared the Bourbon with the Iberian L21 I found a GD of 12 on 67 markers -quite a good match. The TMRCA using an aggressive 0.005 mutation rate and a generation of 26 years brings us back 1066 years to 943.  Hugh Capet was born in 940.   The Capetians come out of  Aragon -Eastern Spain.

It looks to me that the Bourbon in Y Search could be a  descendant of Hugh Capet. What do you think?
« Last Edit: August 17, 2009, 10:56:49 PM by pcusack1 » Logged
embPA
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« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2009, 01:32:49 PM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_of_Hesbaye

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pcusack1
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« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2009, 02:40:54 PM »

Robert of Hesbaye comes out of Tongeren, Belgium of course. There certainly L21's in Belgium. But going back further, the Capetian's come out of Aragon.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 08:15:45 PM by pcusack1 » Logged
pcusack1
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« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2009, 07:10:21 PM »

I just realized that it might not be permissable to pick form the Iberian L21 alleles.  I need to compare to an actual person.
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pcusack1
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« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2009, 11:17:02 PM »

I did a TMRCA detailed analyis (mutation =0.004 and 26 years /gen.)and it came out to 442 years.  subtracting form 2009 -442 =1567AD . Henry IV of Navarre -first Bourbon King  was born in 1553AD.  This implies that Henry IV could have been the common ancestor with Iberian L21 and the Bourbon in Y Search.
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rms2
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« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2009, 09:25:41 AM »

I did a TMRCA detailed analyis (mutation =0.004 and 26 years /gen.)and it came out to 442 years.  subtracting form 2009 -442 =1567AD . Henry IV of Navarre -first Bourbon King  was born in 1553AD.  This implies that Henry IV could have been the common ancestor with Iberian L21 and the Bourbon in Y Search.

I'm not getting this. Bourbon is U152+, meaning he is L21-. Being 12 away from him at 67 markers isn't all that meaningful for a man in a different subclade.

Such proximity is just another indicator that R1b1b2 expanded rapidly during the Neolithic Period and the Bronze Age.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2009, 09:26:56 AM by rms2 » Logged

pcusack1
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« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2009, 03:00:42 PM »

Thank you .

There are those who  claim that there isn't much difference between the L21's and S28's:

http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2009-07/1247409123

I really think its time to open our eyes, look at the continental distributions of the main western European R1b clades and stop all this L21=isles, S21=Germanic and S28=Alpine Celtic labelling.  It just does not appear to stand up to scrutiny if you look at the FTDNA projects maps with an open mind.  

According to Genebase L21 and S28 emerged at the same time about 3500 -4000
« Last Edit: August 20, 2009, 04:02:13 PM by pcusack1 » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2009, 04:05:32 PM »

Thank you .

There are those who  claim that there isn't much difference between the L21's and S28's:

http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2009-07/1247409123

I really think its time to open our eyes, look at the continental distributions of the main western European R1b clades and stop all this L21=isles, S21=Germanic and S28=Alpine Celtic labelling.  It just does not appear to stand up to scrutiny if you look at the FTDNA projects maps with an open mind.  

According to Genebase L21 and S28 emerged at the same time about 3500 -4000

As an Irish Type III, my closest matches are  with differnet subclades : R1b1b2a1b5 vs R1b1b2a1a2f.  (11 on 76 markers, or 8 on 58 etc.)

Please find where I have done any of the things you are accusing me of.

U152 and L21 are not the same thing. They are related in that they are both P312+, but, beyond that, they are separate subclades descended from separate P312+ progenitors.

A U152+ man with the modern surname Bourbon might or might no be related to the old royal Bourbon family. But the fact that an L21+ man is a genetic distance of 12 from him at 67 markers does not make that L21+ man a Bourbon . . . not even close. The two men aren't even related within genealogical time or even within the last 3,000-4,000 years.
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pcusack1
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« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2009, 04:18:32 PM »

Thank you for your input.  I'm learning a lot.  Sorry, I odn't mean to accusitive. I'm still learning.
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