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Author Topic: A Siberian R-P312*!  (Read 836 times)
rms2
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« on: July 30, 2009, 10:06:05 PM »

The last of the Deep Clade-R results have come in for Zavorokhin, YSearch YZDWK, whose most distant y-dna ancestor, Ivan, was a Siberian Cossack. He is R-P312*.

I believe he is the easternmost P312+ to date, since his y-dna ancestor was born in Siberia, near Talmenka, south of Novosibirsk, beating even our R-L2* Kipchak tribesman, Mamedaliyev, from Kazakhstan.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2009, 12:57:40 AM »

Rich, what is demonstrating this Russian Cossack re the Eastern origin of Hg. R1b1b2? He has 223 full match on Ysearch, pretty all from Western Europe, and he is at a GD of 1 from WAMH (DYS389I from 13 to 12), then, using your preferred mutation rate, he has a MRCA with the great part of Western Europeans less than 700 years ago. Then must we conclude that we all Western and Southern Europeans are sons of a horde of Cossacks  flying Genghis Khan?
« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 02:56:27 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Mike Walsh
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« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2009, 11:28:38 AM »

I'm only seeing 12 markers tested in his Ysearch ID.  I think we all know that 12 marker comparisons are of little use for anyone in R1b1b2 (R-M269) so your point is not very relevant.
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2009, 11:44:01 AM »

Rich, what is demonstrating this Russian Cossack re the Eastern origin of Hg. R1b1b2? He has 223 full match on Ysearch, pretty all from Western Europe, and he is at a GD of 1 from WAMH (DYS389I from 13 to 12), then, using your preferred mutation rate, he has a MRCA with the great part of Western Europeans less than 700 years ago. Then must we conclude that we all Western and Southern Europeans are sons of a horde of Cossacks  flying Genghis Khan?
Maliclavelli, I don't your point is that applicable, at least at this data resolution.   I think most would agree that 12 marker comparisons for R1b1b2 are pretty much useless, which is why normally 67 markers is required.   Dr. Michael Hammer even made the statement (I've read) that 67 markers may not even be enough for R1b1b2.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 11:44:29 AM by Mike » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2009, 12:37:26 PM »

Mike, I, not being of English mother tongue, don’t know if a little bit of irony is perceptible in what I usually write. Anyway perhaps you know that pretty all are thinking to an Eastern origin of R1b1b2 and of Western Europeans, or from South Russia (that I think more probable) or from Middle East (see Vizachero, for the known reasons). I, with my friend Gioiello, am a supporter of an Italian (or nearby after the Younger Dryas) one. Anyway in the past illustrious scholars have found crowd of Phoenicians, Berbers (and similar) for much less markers. I know very well that 12 are few, very few, and above all I think we need SNPs, in this case above all L23+ with L150- (like my compatriot and very close genetically to me Romitti).
Anyway, said between us, this Russian Cossack is clearly of Western European origin, and very recent furthermore.
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

rms2
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« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2009, 03:24:42 PM »

While I agree it is possible that Zavorokhin could have an ancestor in the distant past of western origin, I agree with Mike that 12 markers aren't enough to say that with confidence.

When I post that thus-and-so person has tested P312+ and his ancestor came from such-and-such a location, what I am giving is a report of the known facts without comment. Notice that I did not say anything about Zavorokhin's origin proving anything about the origin of P312 or R1b1b2. I merely reported the result and remarked on the birthplace of his most distant y-dna ancestor, who was born about 1810.

Vasily needs to go to 67 markers, but I guess he'll do that when he is ready. But, anyway, the result is interesting.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2009, 10:11:26 PM »

Of course I am not at logger-heads with you: others are my enemies. Your position is followed pretty from everybody and anyway the game re the Italian Refugium is played on other haplotypes, between R/L23- and R/L11+, and perhaps before, being L/51+, with DYS426=13, survived only in South Germany or nearby. Anyway we are in South-Central Europe, and not in Russia or even less Middle East.
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

rms2
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« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2009, 10:44:22 AM »

Of course I am not at logger-heads with you: others are my enemies. Your position is followed pretty from everybody and anyway the game re the Italian Refugium is played on other haplotypes, between R/L23- and R/L11+, and perhaps before, being L/51+, with DYS426=13, survived only in South Germany or nearby. Anyway we are in South-Central Europe, and not in Russia or even less Middle East.

Of course we are not at loggerheads. I regard you as a friend. Friends can politely disagree, especially over aspects of a hobby.
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