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Author Topic: Scandinavian R1b Cluster  (Read 620 times)
GoldenHind
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« on: July 19, 2009, 02:33:25 PM »

Ken Nordtvedt mentioned on another forum that he has identified a "unique clade" of R1b which has a hotspot in west Norway, but is also found in Sweden and Denmark. He says it is characterized by the following markers:
385 = 11 13
439 = 11
441 = 14
446 = 15
He also said the clade did not look like a young one to him.
Does anyone have any idea whether this cluster is more likely L21, P312*, U152 or U106? How does it match up with the Scandinavian members of the various R1b projects?
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2009, 04:12:57 PM »

Since no one has responded, I thought I would give it a go myself. I ran the values from Nordtvedt through Ysearch using the usual R1b standard values for the additional markers. Though the vast majority of matches had not been deep clade tested, I found 3 P312*, 2 L21 and one U152/L2 amongst the results (assuming the self reported subclades are accurate). Only one of these was Scandinavian, Eriksson, confirmed P312* from Sweden.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2009, 11:42:19 AM »

Since no one has responded, I thought I would give it a go myself. I ran the values from Nordtvedt through Ysearch using the usual R1b standard values for the additional markers. Though the vast majority of matches had not been deep clade tested, I found 3 P312*, 2 L21 and one U152/L2 amongst the results (assuming the self reported subclades are accurate). Only one of these was Scandinavian, Eriksson, confirmed P312* from Sweden.

There are at least 3 different subclades being involved that are in the 3000-6000 years of age.  The implication to me is that this north-south cluster includes a lot of "convergence" or people that are not that closely related.

It sounds like the true subclade is a subset of the P312* paragroup.

Of the confirmed L21* folks I have identified, I couldn't find any with this exact pattern.  That worries me a bit.  Either I'm missing something or some people mark themselves as "R1b1b2a1b5*" in Ysearch when they are just guessing.  Of course, "R1b1b2a1b5 (tested)" shows up when FTDNA data is linked.
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
GoldenHind
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« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2009, 08:37:33 PM »

I have done a little more searching on Ysearch and am pretty well convinced this cluster is P312*. It is almost certainly not U106, as those who have tested DYS 492 are all 12.  The following Ysearch entries are are very similar and fit the proposed cluster very well:
Ericksson Sweden 29TRV P312*
Hanson Norway JFGYS R1b but not deep clade tested
Smith England NXMWE P312*
Lundberg Sweden Y4PW3 R1b but not deep clade tested
Note this is a different cluster from Nordtvedt's north-south cluster.
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