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Author Topic: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster  (Read 13693 times)
Richard Rocca
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« Reply #125 on: January 30, 2012, 05:57:35 PM »

I think you are confusing it with DYS492=14 which is the modal of all U152+ Z56+ folks, including the L4 group which is below Z56.
Rich, of course I cannot have mistook DYS487 with DYS492. This is an affront to my intelligence and to my memory (I have always used my memory rather than my papers). Not only DYS487=14 is present in an R1b1c4 (V88+) Possible V69+ from Europe (FTDNA: 86986), but also in ySearch 42567 (Khusnutdinov, like the famous Elza Khusnutdinova), probably a Bashkir, who is R-U152/DYS492=14, and this raises the problem of these Eastern R-U152, because to have this very rare mutation could be a sign of ancientness, and, said between us, all the calculations (also that of Fehér) which don’t take in consideration that mutations happen around the modal, I think are worth nothing.

If you took it as as an insult, it was not intended to be. You should not get so easily offended.

I don't know what you mean exactly about the "most ancient", but I can tell you without a doubt that the first man with the U152 mutation was DYS492=12 and DYS487=13 because not only are those the modals for U152, but also for U152's father (P312), great-grandfather (L11), all of its siblings (L21, Z196, DF19) and its cousin (U106).
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Paternal: R1b-U152+L2*
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #126 on: January 31, 2012, 01:13:21 AM »

If you took it as as an insult, it was not intended to be. You should not get so easily offended.
I don't know what you mean exactly about the "most ancient", but I can tell you without a doubt that the first man with the U152 mutation was DYS492=12 and DYS487=13 because not only are those the modals for U152, but also for U152's father (P312), great-grandfather (L11), all of its siblings (L21, Z196, DF19) and its cousin (U106).
Of course I didn't take it as an insult, and not by you, whom I consider a friend. You are right in what you say, but probably the problems raised by me should be considered. The problem of the haplotype of G2a found 7000 years ago in France for instance. Probably my theories are more appropriate for markers not so slow mutating ones. And anyway this DYS487=14, if is modal for this "Baltic cluster" of R-L21, could be modal also for some cluster of R-U152/Z56.
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Maliclavelli


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MtDNA: K1a1b1e

seferhabahir
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« Reply #127 on: July 17, 2012, 03:30:35 AM »


I have a recent 63/67 match that I encouraged to test for L21 (and also for L583, since his surname indicates probable Levite ancestry). He just came back as L21+, and should be joining the R-L21 Plus Project soon so he can be the newest member of the Baltic Cluster. I don't know whether he has gotten his L583 result back, but I guess as soon as he joins we will be able to see his SNP results. I'm hopeful about L583+ given the GD of 4, his surname and also the fact that he is DYS444=12, which I believe is a key Baltic Cluster STR marker for L583, as only Burde and I seem to have it.
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Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

mtDNA: J1c7a

rms2
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« Reply #128 on: July 17, 2012, 05:59:26 AM »


I have a recent 63/67 match that I encouraged to test for L21 (and also for L583, since his surname indicates probable Levite ancestry). He just came back as L21+, and should be joining the R-L21 Plus Project soon so he can be the newest member of the Baltic Cluster. I don't know whether he has gotten his L583 result back, but I guess as soon as he joins we will be able to see his SNP results. I'm hopeful about L583+ given the GD of 4, his surname and also the fact that he is DYS444=12, which I believe is a key Baltic Cluster STR marker for L583, as only Burde and I seem to have it.

Cool!

Thanks for encouraging him to join the project.
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seferhabahir
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« Reply #129 on: July 17, 2012, 11:52:32 AM »

I have a recent 63/67 match that I encouraged to test for L21 (and also for L583, since his surname indicates probable Levite ancestry). He just came back as L21+, and should be joining the R-L21 Plus Project soon so he can be the newest member of the Baltic Cluster. I don't know whether he has gotten his L583 result back, but I guess as soon as he joins we will be able to see his SNP results. I'm hopeful about L583+ given the GD of 4, his surname and also the fact that he is DYS444=12, which I believe is a key Baltic Cluster STR marker for L583, as only Burde and I seem to have it.


Cool!

Thanks for encouraging him to join the project.

I looked on the draft FTDNA tree and clicked on L583, and lo an behold, there are now THREE postive tests for it, so that means he came back an L583+ as I had expected. I don't think we could ever get it on the ISOGG tree given the close GDs amongst all three, but I think you could consider breaking us out into an Ashkenazi Levite sub-cluster of the Baltic Cluster if you were so inclined (unless it breaks your project's lettering system somehow).

This is great stuff (at least for me), because now we have a definitive SNP that differentiates the Levite ancestries from the rest of the Baltic Cluster (several of whom have tested L583- and have not indicated any Levite tradition). I'm still waiting on a result for DF49 to see if I am really DF13** but I don't if think that changes anything here.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2012, 12:16:46 PM by seferhabahir » Logged

Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

mtDNA: J1c7a

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #130 on: August 23, 2012, 04:22:22 AM »

I don’t know if someone has spoken before of the case of Thiery (ySearch DPVGV) as a possible link with the “Baltic cluster”, i.e. a link of the “Baltic cluster” with an introgression happened in France in the Jewish gene pool.
He satisfies 7 out of the 9 conditions posed by Seferhabahir:

Yes, I think several have noticed this. Off-modal values for 1111EE include the following:

DYS 388     12 > 11
DYS 439     12 > 11
DYS 392     13 > 14
DYS 459b   10 >  9
DYS 464c   17 > 15
DYS 456     16 > 15
DYS 487     13 > 14

not these two:
DYS 442     12 > 11
DYS 590      8 >  9
where he has the ancestral modal.

This of course is very important to determine a clade and a witness of the haplotype of origin. But Thiery has also many weird values as to the “Baltic cluster”:

DYS391= 10
DYS385a=12
DYS454=12
DYS570=16 (but could justify the 17 of Prager (T8A6N) like the most ancient form as to the 18 of the others)
CDYb=39
DYS446=10
DYS511=11

But it seems to me that we have all the elements to deepen also by SNPs a possible link between Thiery and the “Baltic cluster”.

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Maliclavelli


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rms2
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« Reply #131 on: August 23, 2012, 10:01:26 AM »

I emailed Thierry via Ysearch four or five times a couple of years ago. He never answered me. I even offered him a FREE L21 test. I'm not sure he's even still alive.
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seferhabahir
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« Reply #132 on: August 23, 2012, 04:01:00 PM »

I emailed Thierry via Ysearch four or five times a couple of years ago. He never answered me. I even offered him a FREE L21 test. I'm not sure he's even still alive.

Where was his testing performed? I don't think it was FTDNA. If he is just a singular ysearch entry, how do we know that his values are accurate? As pointed out, there are some awfully weird values that nobody else in the 1111EE cluster seem to have.

On another issue, FTDNA told me that I must check with the R-L21 Plus Project administrator (that you would be you, Rich, I guess) to ensure that if I start up an 1111EE project it does not "overlap" with your goals. I failed to see why it would be any different than the DF21 or Z253 or 11-13 Combo projects, but maybe because I called it the DF13 1111EE Project. I decided not to further engage the help desk person on this until I checked with you. I think I confused him by using DF13 in the title.

"Thank you for submitting your application. While we appreciate your enthusiasm for leading a project, FTDNA has a firm policy against creating new projects which have overlapping themes and goals of existing projects. You will need to contact the administrator of the R-L21 Plus project in order to confirm that this project has different enough goals from your prospective project. Once you have contacted this administrator and are given the OK, please send me a copy of the email and I will create this project for you."

I figure I might have more success getting reluctant 1111EE people to join a smallish project, instead of the multi-thousand person L21 project, most of whom they would have little or no interest in. Wanna give me an OK? Then I will proceed with it.
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Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

mtDNA: J1c7a

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #133 on: August 23, 2012, 04:56:43 PM »

Where was his testing performed? I don't think it was FTDNA. If he is just a singular ysearch entry, how do we know that his values are accurate? As pointed out, there are some awfully weird values that nobody else in the 1111EE cluster seem to have.
Seferhabahir, you know that we are searching for truth and only for truth, but saying that this haplotype could be an artefact seems to me too much, and certainly that he hadn’t replied to Rich many times isn’t in favour of him, but these data seem to me completely reliable. What should I say that Mangino doesn’t answer my letter and withholds his name from the project, or the K1a1b1a in the Greek project and after in the Italian one isn’t findable? There is a French living in Canada who is close to Thiery on SMGF. Unfortunately his data are incomplete, as remain incomplete after many years those of Toniolo, a very important Italian R1b1* who could give an important support to my theories. Anyway truth will spring up at last.
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Maliclavelli


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rms2
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« Reply #134 on: August 23, 2012, 06:26:49 PM »

I emailed Thierry via Ysearch four or five times a couple of years ago. He never answered me. I even offered him a FREE L21 test. I'm not sure he's even still alive.

Where was his testing performed? I don't think it was FTDNA. If he is just a singular ysearch entry, how do we know that his values are accurate? As pointed out, there are some awfully weird values that nobody else in the 1111EE cluster seem to have.

On another issue, FTDNA told me that I must check with the R-L21 Plus Project administrator (that you would be you, Rich, I guess) to ensure that if I start up an 1111EE project it does not "overlap" with your goals. I failed to see why it would be any different than the DF21 or Z253 or 11-13 Combo projects, but maybe because I called it the DF13 1111EE Project. I decided not to further engage the help desk person on this until I checked with you. I think I confused him by using DF13 in the title.

"Thank you for submitting your application. While we appreciate your enthusiasm for leading a project, FTDNA has a firm policy against creating new projects which have overlapping themes and goals of existing projects. You will need to contact the administrator of the R-L21 Plus project in order to confirm that this project has different enough goals from your prospective project. Once you have contacted this administrator and are given the OK, please send me a copy of the email and I will create this project for you."

I figure I might have more success getting reluctant 1111EE people to join a smallish project, instead of the multi-thousand person L21 project, most of whom they would have little or no interest in. Wanna give me an OK? Then I will proceed with it.

If you need an email from me, just send me an email. I have no problem with other L21-related projects. I don't like it when people quit the R-L21 Plus Project for offshoot projects, but that's their right, and it hasn't been much of a problem, anyway.
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seferhabahir
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« Reply #135 on: May 01, 2013, 03:34:42 PM »

If you need an email from me, just send me an email. I have no problem with other L21-related projects. I don't like it when people quit the R-L21 Plus Project for offshoot projects, but that's their right, and it hasn't been much of a problem, anyway.

Obviously, I haven't started an offshoot L21 Jewish Cluster Project yet. I have noticed that an Ashkenazi Levite (kit 282013) recently joined the R-L21 Plus Project and I got him to agree to test for L583, which is now on order with FTDNA.

Do I understand correctly that people who join the R-L21 Plus Project implicitly consent to have SNP tests performed on their DNA if donations are made to the project? If I donated $195 to the project, would I be able to select 5 targeted people in my cluster with 67 markers and have them tested for L583? I might want to try this, since it has been hard to get some of these folks to order on their own?
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Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

mtDNA: J1c7a

Dubhthach
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« Reply #136 on: May 02, 2013, 04:38:00 AM »

There is no implied consent, generally what happens is a project admin will contact the kit holder and offer a sponsored test. If the kit holder agrees then the admin can order the test without needing to go to FTDNA helpdesk.

Before hand you need an actual consent email from kit holder to send to FTDNA and they would process the order for you.

If you have for example a list of people you want to sponsor your best bet would be to get Project admin to contact them to see if they are interested in a *FREE* (emphasis) sponsored test. If they all agree then I would donate the sum to the project and let the admin proceed with ordering. Obviously if only 3 agree then you don't need to donate as much.

-Paul
(DF41+)
(Admin Ireland yDNA Project)
(Admin R-DF41 & Subclades Project)
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seferhabahir
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« Reply #137 on: May 02, 2013, 12:17:17 PM »

Thanks for the information. I guess there had to be some interest in the beginning to have had them join the project in the first place, but I think most may not care that much. I have had better luck with the newer testers.
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Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

mtDNA: J1c7a

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #138 on: May 12, 2013, 04:09:39 AM »

3   14   13   29   24   11   13   13   11,14   12   11   15   19   15   17   23   11   >>
1 of 255   Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil [European]   Eurasian - European - Western European   Latin America
1 of 384   Ravenna, Italy [Italian]   Eurasian - European - Western European   Europe
1 of 1041   United States [European American]   Eurasian - European   North America

We cannot be sure that this haplotype on YHRD has something to do with yours: DYS392 is 13 and we haven’t DYS388. Anyway these are the persons found. Here Italy is dominant, taking present what I have always said about Brazil (above all Southern one) and the American we don’t know where he could have come from.


I don’t know if seferhabahir did some progress about his ancestry and certainly this Jewish R-L21/L513 haplotype has some odd values, but this guy on YHRD seems linked: he matches 21 markers and differs only in DYS570=18 instead of 17 and DYS643=10 instead of 11. YHRD H4 should be diminished of 1 then it is =11.

1   14   13   29   24   11   14   13   11,14   12   11   15   19   15   17   23   12   17   22   13   12   17   11   >>

1 of 129   Illinois, United States [European American]   Eurasian - European   North America

These other guys could be linked. Of course a R-L21 in Ravenna is a little believable:

2   14   13   29   24   11   14   13   11,14   12   11   15   19   15   18   23   12   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>

1 of 81   Porto Alegre, Brazil [European]   Eurasian - European   Latin America
1 of 384   Ravenna, Italy [Italian]   Eurasian - European - Western European   Europe


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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

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