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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #100 on: August 19, 2011, 02:11:17 PM »

Why haven’t you put in your “Baltic Cluster” Mednick, who is unclassified in the “Jewish R1b Project”?
He belongs clearly to this cluster and has some interesting mutations:
DYS391=12 from 11
DYS458=16 from 17
RecLOH in YCAII: 19-19 from 19-23
DYS534=16 from 15

733 MEDNICK, Kamenets-Podolski, Ukraine Ukraine R1b1a2 13 24 14 12 11-14 12 11 11 13 14 29 16 9-9 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-15-17 11 11 19-19 15 15 18 18 39-41 11 12 11 9 15-16 9 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 13 22 20 13 12 11 14 11 11 12 12


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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

seferhabahir
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« Reply #101 on: August 19, 2011, 08:46:53 PM »

Why haven’t you put in your “Baltic Cluster” Mednick, who is unclassified in the “Jewish R1b Project”?
He belongs clearly to this cluster and has some interesting mutations

I know about him and he is in the spreadsheet I personally keep on this cluster. I guess he has not chosen to join the R-L21 Project. He is also in the Ukraine West project, and as Rich pointed out in 2009, he's from Kamenets-Podolsk, Ukraine (same as Rich's wife's maternal side and same as my mtDNA maternal side). This area was a center of the early Chassidic movement started by the Baal Shem Tov, and a major area of eastern European Jewish life.
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Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

mtDNA: J1c7a

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #102 on: August 20, 2011, 03:13:45 AM »

That the introgression could have happened in South France it is an hypothesis to take in consideration. This is the haplotype of Rodgers (ySearch: 23J69):
13,24,14,11,11-14,12,12,11,13,14,29,17,8-9,11,11,25,15,19,29,15-15-15-17
   
It differs from the reconstructed haplotype of this “Baltic cluster” only in DYS388 (12 for 11) and in DYS459a (8 for 9). We don’t know if he is an R-L21, but I bet he is.

« Last Edit: August 20, 2011, 04:56:35 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #103 on: August 20, 2011, 04:39:57 AM »

The MRCA between Mednick and Rodgers is:

DYS391=0,003155
DYS388=0,000379
DYS458=0,005804
DYS459a=0,001176

0,010514:4=0,002628

1000000:2628=380.4

(4x380.4):50=30.4
30.4x32=972.8 years ago.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2011, 05:00:11 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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seferhabahir
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« Reply #104 on: November 09, 2011, 01:18:14 PM »

GD is 3 at 37 markers, which is how many markers exist for Burde. I don't know if this is different enough to ever get L583 onto the ISOGG tree. There are no known existing family relationships. It would be nice to uncover a third positive somewhere.

Burde got his 67 marker test back, and we match exactly on 38-67 so still GD of 3 at 67 markers. The interesting thing is that he has a closer match (than me) at 65/67 markers with someone else, who I also match but at 63/67. We have convinced this person to test L583 and encourage to also join the R-L21 Plus Project to get put into the Baltic Cluster. Who knows, might be a third L583+ discovery...

The third potential L583+ person just came back L583- even though the three of us matched exactly on the 38-67 STR markers and this person was GD of 2 to Burde and GD of 4 with me. Was hoping to find a third L583+ but not to be. Really would be nice to find a SNP upstream of L583 that would encompass the Baltic (1111EE) cluster. I'm sure there is one.  Now I'll have to think about testing more of the new Z SNPs, since Z253 did not pan out.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #105 on: November 09, 2011, 04:11:26 PM »

GD is 3 at 37 markers, which is how many markers exist for Burde. I don't know if this is different enough to ever get L583 onto the ISOGG tree. There are no known existing family relationships. It would be nice to uncover a third positive somewhere.

Burde got his 67 marker test back, and we match exactly on 38-67 so still GD of 3 at 67 markers. The interesting thing is that he has a closer match (than me) at 65/67 markers with someone else, who I also match but at 63/67. We have convinced this person to test L583 and encourage to also join the R-L21 Plus Project to get put into the Baltic Cluster. Who knows, might be a third L583+ discovery...

The third potential L583+ person just came back L583- even though the three of us matched exactly on the 38-67 STR markers and this person was GD of 2 to Burde and GD of 4 with me. Was hoping to find a third L583+ but not to be. Really would be nice to find a SNP upstream of L583 that would encompass the Baltic (1111EE) cluster. I'm sure there is one.  Now I'll have to think about testing more of the new Z SNPs, since Z253 did not pan out.
Thank you for the update.  Yes, it'd be nice to mark 1111EE with an SNP, and get another SNP above it that links it into L21 with a little more resolution.
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
seferhabahir
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« Reply #106 on: December 30, 2011, 10:03:50 PM »

I have a new 25 marker match with a 1 GD, and Eastern European ancestors. I have suggested that he consider testing for R-L21, R-L583, and additional markers. We'll see. Always interesting to see a new Baltic Cluster person.
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Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

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seferhabahir
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« Reply #107 on: January 02, 2012, 05:45:02 PM »

I have a new 25 marker match with a 1 GD, and Eastern European ancestors. I have suggested that he consider testing for R-L21, R-L583, and additional markers. We'll see. Always interesting to see a new Baltic Cluster person.

Apparently, this person has more marker tests in the queue. His DYS413 values apparently are 21-22, while every other Baltic Cluster member who tested this marker is 23-23. This seems pretty strange. Would it imply that the Baltic Cluster is older than the previous estimates of only 600-700 years ago? This would be consistent with my thought that that beginnings of 1111EE are older.
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seferhabahir
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« Reply #108 on: January 29, 2012, 02:14:54 AM »

Mike,

I think the following two kits should go into your R-L21 spreadsheet. Neither kit has tested for L21 so they are not in the L21 project. However, these kits have both tested to 67 markers, and if they are not members of the Baltic Cluster I will eat my kippah.

169961    [No Name]     R1b1a2    (in the R-L21 WTY Project)

   13    24    14    11    11-14    12    11    11    13    14    29    17    9-9    11    11    25    15    19    29    15-15-16-17    11    11    19-23    15    15    18    18    39-40    11    12    11    9    15-16    9    10    10    8    10    10    12    23-23    16    10    12    12    15    8    12    22    20    13    12    11    14    11    11    12    12                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
 
220214    Freeman    R1b1a2    (in the Jewish R1b Project)

   13    24    14    11    11-14    12    11    11    13    14    29    17    9-9    11    11    25    15    19    29    15-15-15-16    11    10    19-23    15    15    18    18    39-41    11    12    11    9    15-16    9    10    10    8    10    10    12    21-22    16    10    12    12    15    8    13    22    20    13    12    11    14    11    11    12    11                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
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Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #109 on: January 29, 2012, 07:44:32 AM »

This thread is lasting from so long and I should read it again from the beginning. Searching for this haplotype on SMGF I finished to find some persons close to it, to extract them, to put them on ySearch, and to realize after that I had already put them. Of course I have deleted them, leaving only one sample for each person. This I wrote in the past: “I have found on SMGF a person, unfortunately anonymous, who probably belongs to this cluster and is linked with these Jews: KQ7G4.
The closest to him (and to the other Jews) is probably the Brazilian Alves: 5EVW9.
We can think:
1) that this is really an ancient Jewish R-L21 and this Brazilian is a Sephardic
2) that these Ashkenazic Jews are of Iberian descent and the origin of this R-L21 must be searched in Iberia, where R-L21 is present.” Nothing new, but amongst the closest to this haplotype, but with some mutations, I have found the Dutch Groeneboom (ySearch 3DDZA). What to say after the last findings?
That we may deplore that KQ7GA is anonymous, but it is very likable he is a Jew, otherwise he should have given us important indications about the origin of this haplotype.
Now, also after I have demonstrated to a Mexican R-P312/Z196 presupposed of Jewish origin who asked my expertise on 23andme that he is of Iberian origin (perhaps a Jew converted but anyway genetically introgressed from Iberians) and after that we are realizing that probably R-L21 was born in Iberia from some R-P312 come from Italy (this is my thinking), I am inclined to think that also these Jewish R-L21 come from there. The close matches of Alves and of Groeneboom (who could be a Jew converted, but anyway of Sephardic origin if so) and the imperfect match of the sensible values (DYS388, DYS392, etc.) let me think that that is the area of origin.
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Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #110 on: January 29, 2012, 12:17:00 PM »

220214    Freeman    R1b1a2    (in the Jewish R1b Project)

   13    24    14    11    11-14    12    11    11    13    14    29    17    9-9    11    11    25    15    19    29    15-15-15-16    11    10    19-23    15    15    18    18    39-41    11    12    11    9    15-16    9    10    10    8    10    10    12    21-22    16    10    12    12    15    8    13    22    20    13    12    11    14    11    11    12    11   

See ySearch 9NR3T: Hyman. Perhaps he is the same person.                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
 
 
 
 
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Maliclavelli


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seferhabahir
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« Reply #111 on: January 29, 2012, 12:26:02 PM »

220214    Freeman    R1b1a2    (in the Jewish R1b Project)
   

See ySearch 9NR3T: Hyman. Perhaps he is the same person.                                                                                                                                                                                                                         


Yes, this is the same person. Thank you for spotting this.
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Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

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seferhabahir
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« Reply #112 on: January 29, 2012, 01:03:38 PM »

This I wrote in the past: “I have found on SMGF a person, unfortunately anonymous, who probably belongs to this cluster and is linked with these Jews: KQ7G4.
The closest to him (and to the other Jews) is probably the Brazilian Alves: 5EVW9.
We can think:
1) that this is really an ancient Jewish R-L21 and this Brazilian is a Sephardic
2) that these Ashkenazic Jews are of Iberian descent and the origin of this R-L21 must be searched in Iberia, where R-L21 is present.” Nothing new, but amongst the closest to this haplotype, but with some mutations, I have found the Dutch Groeneboom (ySearch 3DDZA). What to say after the last findings?
That we may deplore that KQ7GA is anonymous, but it is very likable he is a Jew, otherwise he should have given us important indications about the origin of this haplotype.
Now, also after I have demonstrated to a Mexican R-P312/Z196 presupposed of Jewish origin who asked my expertise on 23andme that he is of Iberian origin (perhaps a Jew converted but anyway genetically introgressed from Iberians) and after that we are realizing that probably R-L21 was born in Iberia from some R-P312 come from Italy (this is my thinking), I am inclined to think that also these Jewish R-L21 come from there. The close matches of Alves and of Groeneboom (who could be a Jew converted, but anyway of Sephardic origin if so) and the imperfect match of the sensible values (DYS388, DYS392, etc.) let me think that that is the area of origin.


I agree that KQ7G4 is in all likelihood Jewish. But I am doubtful that anyone lacking DYS388=11 is in this cluster. Some of the cluster members have indicated they maybe have a Sephardic past, but I think this is conjecture.

As more (apparently fairly old) SNPs downstream of L21 are found that contain large parts of L21, and I continue to test negative for all of them, it seems that 1111EE will continue to be L21** and likely as old or older than these newly found L21 subclades.

I wouldn't rule out a conversion event in the past, but it could have been early in Jewish history (not Middle Ages), maybe when sizable portions of the pre-Christian Roman Empire accepted Judaism. The lack of L21 in the middle east seems to say this is unlikely to be an ancient Israelite line, especially when I compare to my maternal grandfather J2a* which has signs of Fertile Crescent beginnings.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #113 on: January 29, 2012, 01:38:50 PM »

I have looked at the SNPs you have been tested on FTDNA, but perhaps you have been tested for other SNPs if you say to be R-L21**. Have you been tested also for L459? If so, you are negative also for Z246, L720, S190, L371. Then probably your clade is one of the most ancient after L21, and the unique place where it may be born I think it is Spain. Perhaps you know that I haven’t yet dismiss the possibility that also R-L21 were born in Italy. We have some ancient haplotype, like that of Argiedude, and others in the Lake District of North Italy, but there should be some proof. About the J2a* of your maternal grandfather I should see his haplotype.
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Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #114 on: January 29, 2012, 02:03:32 PM »

3   14   13   29   24   11   13   13   11,14   12   11   15   19   15   17   23   11   >>
1 of 255   Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil [European]   Eurasian - European - Western European   Latin America
1 of 384   Ravenna, Italy [Italian]   Eurasian - European - Western European   Europe
1 of 1041   United States [European American]   Eurasian - European   North America

We cannot be sure that this haplotype on YHRD has something to do with yours: DYS392 is 13 and we haven’t DYS388. Anyway these are the persons found. Here Italy is dominant, taking present what I have always said about Brazil (above all Southern one) and the American we don’t know where he could have come from.
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Maliclavelli


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seferhabahir
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« Reply #115 on: January 29, 2012, 03:40:16 PM »

I have looked at the SNPs you have been tested on FTDNA, but perhaps you have been tested for other SNPs if you say to be R-L21**. Have you been tested also for L459? If so, you are negative also for Z246, L720, S190, L371. Then probably your clade is one of the most ancient after L21, and the unique place where it may be born I think it is Spain.

My WTY results indicate L459+ and L371-. Since I'm DF21-, then I'm negative also for Z246 and L720. Presumably also negative for S190. There is one more L21 kit in the WTY pipeline (kit #37201 from England) with whom I have a GD of 17 at 67 markers. Will have to wait to see what new SNPs if any show up from that.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #116 on: January 30, 2012, 09:04:33 AM »

I don't know if anyone has noted this before and now I have no time to look at it, but it is very importanty in this cluster DYS487=14, pretty always 13 in R1b, except in R-U152. This is a very slow mutating marker.
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Maliclavelli


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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #117 on: January 30, 2012, 11:12:26 AM »

I don't know if anyone has noted this before and now I have no time to look at it, but it is very importanty in this cluster DYS487=14, pretty always 13 in R1b, except in R-U152. This is a very slow mutating marker.

DYS487=13 is modal in U152 as well.
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Paternal: R1b-U152+L2*
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #118 on: January 30, 2012, 12:18:25 PM »

DYS487=13 is modal in U152 as well.
I am at my school and haven't my data at hands, but it seemed to me that the Jewish R-L4 were 14 at this markers. It is a little bit strange that Jews have this value, of course by chance, but it could be a sign of ancientness of these subclades.
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Maliclavelli


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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #119 on: January 30, 2012, 12:22:34 PM »

DYS487=13 is modal in U152 as well.
I am at my school and haven't my data at hands, but it seemed to me that the Jewish R-L4 were 14 at this markers. It is a little bit strange that Jews have this value, of course by chance, but it could be a sign of ancientness of these subclades.

I think you are confusing it with DYS492=14 which is the modal of all U152+ Z56+ folks, including the L4 group which is below Z56.
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seferhabahir
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« Reply #120 on: January 30, 2012, 01:08:51 PM »

I don't know if anyone has noted this before and now I have no time to look at it, but it is very importanty in this cluster DYS487=14, pretty always 13 in R1b, except in R-U152. This is a very slow mutating marker.

Yes, I think several have noticed this. Off-modal values for 1111EE include the following:

DYS 388     12 > 11
DYS 439     12 > 11
DYS 392     13 > 14
DYS 459b   10 >  9
DYS 464c   17 > 15
DYS 456     16 > 15
DYS 442     12 > 11
DYS 590      8 >  9
DYS 487     13 > 14
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #121 on: January 30, 2012, 02:13:29 PM »

I think you are confusing it with DYS492=14 which is the modal of all U152+ Z56+ folks, including the L4 group which is below Z56.
Rich, of course I cannot have mistook DYS487 with DYS492. This is an affront to my intelligence and to my memory (I have always used my memory rather than my papers). Not only DYS487=14 is present in an R1b1c4 (V88+) Possible V69+ from Europe (FTDNA: 86986), but also in ySearch 42567 (Khusnutdinov, like the famous Elza Khusnutdinova), probably a Bashkir, who is R-U152/DYS492=14, and this raises the problem of these Eastern R-U152, because to have this very rare mutation could be a sign of ancientness, and, said between us, all the calculations (also that of Fehér) which don’t take in consideration that mutations happen around the modal, I think are worth nothing.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #122 on: January 30, 2012, 02:26:14 PM »

Yes, I think several have noticed this. Off-modal values for 1111EE include the following:

DYS 388     12 > 11
DYS 439     12 > 11
DYS 392     13 > 14
DYS 459b   10 >  9
DYS 464c   17 > 15
DYS 456     16 > 15
DYS 442     12 > 11
DYS 590      8 >  9
DYS 487     13 > 14

Seferhabahir, I feel myself like a "vox clamans in deserto"/qol be-midbar. I have said many times that the "modal" is an artifice, only the values most common amongst the haplotypes survived, but that it hasn't anything reliable. These ancient haplotypes, like yours, could be the rare survivors of ancient haplotypes and some of theirs values could be the original ones and not a mutations and the ancient true modal should be reconstructed taking in consideration also these haplotypes. I have said that it isn't said that my DYS19=15 (R-L23+) is a mutation from the presumed modal 14 but could be the original value and so on.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 01:52:24 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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« Reply #123 on: January 30, 2012, 02:28:46 PM »

For this all the calculations of Nordtvedt, Klyosov, Fehér and all the others are an "impressive waste of time".
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #124 on: January 30, 2012, 02:34:17 PM »

I have demonstrated this about the G2a found in ancient France. That ancient haplotype has demonstrated that the modal presupposed was wrong.
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


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