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Author Topic: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster  (Read 12053 times)
rms2
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« Reply #50 on: August 05, 2009, 02:46:08 PM »

I can't find any previous reference to Madan. Could you kindly provide details?

I didn't refer to him previously because he wasn't listed in any public project or in Ysearch.

He's in the cluster but has yet to complete his "Plot Ancestral Locations" page or to create a YSearch entry.

I am waiting for him to answer my most recent email regarding his ancestor's birthplace or hometown. In his last email he warned me that he has a big backlog of email and may be somewhat slow to answer.

He's kit N54190 on the R-L21 Plus Project's Y-DNA results page.
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rms2
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« Reply #51 on: August 05, 2009, 02:47:11 PM »

"There was some miscommunication between Lewis and me early on."

Yeah, I had miscommunication problems last year with someone who turned out not to be R-U152 after all. Glad you worked through the miscommunication. It takes some effort to sort things out when you can only communicate through e-mail.

Nice work on this R-L21 group, though. 

Thanks,

Thanks!
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rms2
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« Reply #52 on: August 10, 2009, 09:59:55 AM »

Bloom (no YSearch entry yet), a member of this cluster whose ancestor came from Russia, has joined the R-L21 Plus Project and has an L21 test pending.

I don't know from where in Russia his ancestor came. I'm trying to find out.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2009, 10:02:12 AM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #53 on: August 10, 2009, 11:02:36 AM »

Here is the summary and translation from Russian by Lena Govor (Vladimir Kabo's widow) of some analysis by Dr. Anatole Klyosov. Dr. Klyosov explained to me that "modal" should be replaced by "ancestral" below, in that the ancestral haplotype is meant.

Quote
Dear distant cousins from R1b1b2a1b5 haplogroup,

I have consulted about our ancestry with Dr Anatole Klyosov, specialist in kinetic of DNA mutations (http://aklyosov.home.comcast.net/~aklyosov/). His reconstruction of the ‘genealogy’ of Jews in R1b1b2 haplogroup is the following:

The cluster of our 7 haplotypes is on the bottom right, indicated by our surnames. Translating Dr Klyosov’s explanation in Russian (my comments are in square brackets): [I am unable to attach Dr. Klyosov's tree here. rms2]

‘[In comparison with modal [ancestral is meant here rather than modal - rms2] markers of the group] all these haplotypes have 8 mutations in 25 markers and 14 mutations in 37 markers. This places the common ancestor of all 7 haplotypes 650±240 years back if calculating on the basis of 25-markers and 550±160 back if calculating on the basis of 37 markers. In other words these seven people have a common ancestor who lived in the 14-15th century. It is possible to reconstruct that these families fled Central Europe around 650 years ago when Europe was depopulated by the bubonic plaque and Jews were often massacred as alleged culprits of the epidemic. The surviving Jews fled to Lithuania and Poland, who offered them protection. Jews at that time experienced a genetic bottleneck [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_bottleneck]. That is why the most distant common ancestor of many Jewish clusters lived in the middle of the 14th century or later – that corresponds to the time of their migration to the new territories in Eastern Europe.

The tree has another cluster which is located in the right part above your cluster [its haplotypes are indicated by digits with letters]. This is the cluster of the Rogov family and their relatives, Byelorussian-Baltic Jews, who came to these territories the same way as yours, fleeing Central Europe. Their common ancestor lived about one thousand years ago and the common ancestor of the Rogovs and your group lived 3900-4200 years ago (the first figure is based on calculations of 25 markers and the second on 37 markers). Thus the genealogical lines of Jews in haplogroup R1b1b2 separated in Abraham’s time to meet again in the Baltic territories 4,000 years later’.

Earlier Dr Klyosov wrote that ancestors of R1b1b2 haplogroup belong to ‘kurgan culture’ [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan_culture#Kurgan_culture] who traversed the Southern Russian steppe and via the Middle East came to Egypt, and thus could be among ‘Many other people’ (‘mixed multitude’) (Exodus 12:38) which followed Moses as part of the Twelve Tribes of Israel. Their following migration included North Africa, the Iberian Peninsula and Europe.

Regarding the last few comments concerning the Middle East, Dr. Klyosov indicated that the R1b1 in the Near East is older than that in Europe, which may indicate an origin there, after which the branch that became R1b1b2 went north to the Russian steppe.



« Last Edit: August 10, 2009, 11:04:30 AM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #54 on: September 20, 2009, 06:39:22 PM »

Bloom (no YSearch entry yet), a member of this cluster whose ancestor came from Russia, has joined the R-L21 Plus Project and has an L21 test pending.

I don't know from where in Russia his ancestor came. I'm trying to find out.

Bloom got his L21+ result today. His ancestor actually came from Lomza, Poland, not Russia, as I originally thought.

Thus far this cluster, with six of its members tested, is 100% L21+.

I don't think there can be any real doubt that it is a solid L21+ cluster now.

At last count there were at least 21 different Ashkenazi surnames associated with this cluster. That makes it pretty significant, it seems to me.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #55 on: September 20, 2009, 07:37:43 PM »

So what can we deduce from this cluster? Obviously it originated in Central Europe/Germany most likely?
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MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



rms2
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« Reply #56 on: September 21, 2009, 03:08:41 PM »

So what can we deduce from this cluster? Obviously it originated in Central Europe/Germany most likely?

Yes, that's right. Dr. Anatole Klyosov compared seven of its haplotypes and concluded that all its members are probably descended from the same man who lived in Central Europe in the 14th century. He theorizes that it wound up in the Baltic as a consequence of the persecution of Jews that followed in the wake of their being blamed for the Bubonic Plague.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #57 on: September 22, 2009, 07:36:27 AM »

One thing is for sure.  The line was not originally a Jewish one.  Sooner or later we will find non-Jewish representatives of this clade in western Europe, descendants of the original line before someone on it converted to Judaism.  Unlike the Jewish members of this cluster, the non-Jewish ones should be located among the main L21 block in western Europe.  Their numbers may be much lower than the Jewish members. Do the STRs of this cluster point to similarity with any non-Jewish individuals.  That may give a clue about the origin point of this cluster.   
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rms2
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« Reply #58 on: September 22, 2009, 08:13:54 AM »

One thing is for sure.  The line was not originally a Jewish one.  Sooner or later we will find non-Jewish representatives of this clade in western Europe, descendants of the original line before someone on it converted to Judaism.  Unlike the Jewish members of this cluster, the non-Jewish ones should be located among the main L21 block in western Europe.  Their numbers may be much lower than the Jewish members. Do the STRs of this cluster point to similarity with any non-Jewish individuals.  That may give a clue about the origin point of this cluster.  

I have found just one so far who might not have Jewish heritage (although I don't know that for sure).

The surname is Thierry, YSearch DPVGV, and the most distant ancestor is listed as originating in Chateau-Thierry in NE France. He is definitely in the cluster and I am sure is L21+.

No others have popped up that far west or with non-Ashkenazi surnames. I have emailed Thierry at least twice but have gotten no response.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2009, 08:15:01 AM by rms2 » Logged

Mike Walsh
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« Reply #59 on: September 24, 2009, 08:29:28 PM »

I don't think this guy fits in the cluster but I just noticed in the R1b Jewish project this kit # - 47514.  The MDKA listed is "David Ballard NA, Porshia France, Goldsmith German".

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/JewishR1b/default.aspx?section=yresults
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rms2
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« Reply #60 on: September 25, 2009, 08:00:06 AM »

I don't think this guy fits in the cluster but I just noticed in the R1b Jewish project this kit # - 47514.  The MDKA listed is "David Ballard NA, Porshia France, Goldsmith German".

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/JewishR1b/default.aspx?section=yresults

I have tried to contact him in the past but got no response.

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seferhabahir
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« Reply #61 on: May 08, 2011, 01:53:15 PM »

One thing is for sure.  The line was not originally a Jewish one.  Sooner or later we will find non-Jewish representatives of this clade in western Europe, descendants of the original line before someone on it converted to Judaism.  Unlike the Jewish members of this cluster, the non-Jewish ones should be located among the main L21 block in western Europe.  Their numbers may be much lower than the Jewish members. Do the STRs of this cluster point to similarity with any non-Jewish individuals.  That may give a clue about the origin point of this cluster.  

I have found just one so far who might not have Jewish heritage (although I don't know that for sure).

The surname is Thierry, YSearch DPVGV, and the most distant ancestor is listed as originating in Chateau-Thierry in NE France. He is definitely in the cluster and I am sure is L21+.

No others have popped up that far west or with non-Ashkenazi surnames. I have emailed Thierry at least twice but have gotten no response.


This is my first post in the forum, so am hoping you don’t all jump on me all at once. Also, apologies for restarting a year-and-a-half old thread, but I’m new to this. I have been trying to figure out how Thierry fits into the R-L21 Baltic Cluster (if he does), with a non-Ashkenazi name and a few off-modal markers. He does have the DYS388-439 11-11 STR markers, and is the only other R-L21 person with them outside of the Baltic Cluster.

The only recent additions to the Baltic Cluster are clearly Ashkenazi and nobody in Western Europe or the British Isles has been added yet. So, who is this Thierry guy? There is a long-standing academic debate regarding a supposed relation between Theuderic (Thierry) and the Jewish Makhir of Narbonne. Nathaniel Taylor’s rebuttal to Arthur Zuckerman’s 1972 book, A Jewish Princedom in Feudal France, is extremely informative, and methodically takes apart the Zuckerman conclusion that these two were the same person.

The web debate on this Thierry/Makhir identity has been vociferous, and that’s putting it mildly. Apparently, many in genealogy circles would like it to be true so they could prove a Descent from Antiquity (i.e., from King David to the present). I don’t know what to think of this, except that the Baltic Cluster outlier Thierry shows up in Ysearch with STRs clearly matching a lot of Ashkenazi Eastern European Jews, and with a very interesting name.

Is this all just a coincidence? Can one of you enlighten me? During the 8th century, Charles Martel apparently kept Theuderic IV a prisoner at Chateau-Thierry (which, by the way, is on the other side of France from Narbonne). It’s too bad that Thierry wasn’t tested at an FTDNA lab.

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Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

mtDNA: J1c7a

rms2
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« Reply #62 on: May 08, 2011, 02:40:12 PM »

I was not aware of that background. I merely noticed Thierry back when I was scouring Ysearch for members of the Baltic Cluster. It's been awhile since I looked at his Ysearch entry.

I have written him a number of times but, unfortunately, have never received a response. Apparently his email connection via Ysearch was good, since none of my emails was returned as undeliverable.

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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #63 on: May 09, 2011, 11:35:44 PM »

..This is my first post in the forum, so am hoping you don’t all jump on me all at once. Also, apologies for restarting a year-and-a-half old thread, but I’m new to this. .

Thanks for joining the conversation. I'm very interested in your thoughts and research.
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seferhabahir
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« Reply #64 on: May 10, 2011, 11:07:37 AM »


Thanks for joining the conversation. I'm very interested in your thoughts and research.

Thanks for the encouragement. This will be even more interesting when the Baltic Cluster person's WTY results come back with some potential new SNPs. Of course, that person is me, so I'm looking forward to when the lab gets back to scoring the newest sequences.
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Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

mtDNA: J1c7a

seferhabahir
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« Reply #65 on: May 12, 2011, 07:38:46 PM »

I merely noticed Thierry back when I was scouring Ysearch for members of the Baltic Cluster.

I thought I would scour the web as well as ysearch looking for other DYS388 = 11 and found a post from someone named Nigel Seel in the UK who posted his (relatively few) Oxford Ancestors STR markers on his blog. He says he is AMH, and maybe he is - but he also has some Baltic Cluster similarities like Thierry. His markers are:

DYS 19 = 14
DYS 388 = 11
DYS 390 = 23
DYS 391 = 11
DYS 392 = 13
DYS 393 = 13
DYS 389i = 10
DYS 389ii-i = 16
DYS 425 = 12
DYS 426 = 12

Can't know if he is L-21, but if he was, then he would be the only other non-Eastern European besides Thierry with DYS388 = 11, which appears to be an interesting Baltic Cluster (or close) indicator for anyone near AMH. His post can be found at

http://interweave-consulting.blogspot.com/2008/12/more-on-y-chromosome-dna-testing.html
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Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

mtDNA: J1c7a

seferhabahir
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« Reply #66 on: June 01, 2011, 04:53:47 PM »


This will be even more interesting when the Baltic Cluster person's WTY results come back with some potential new SNPs. Of course, that person is me, so I'm looking forward to when the lab gets back to scoring the newest sequences.



Well, how about that!!

SNP L583, which I guess showed up on the Finch2 server today,  is from my WTY sequence, and it's likely one that will be an identifier for the Baltic Cluster (Eastern European Ashkenazic).  It would be very interesting if anybody outside of that cluster ends up testing positive for this SNP.


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Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

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Jdean
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« Reply #67 on: June 01, 2011, 05:34:32 PM »

I'll say and congrats
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« Reply #68 on: June 01, 2011, 05:40:30 PM »


This will be even more interesting when the Baltic Cluster person's WTY results come back with some potential new SNPs. Of course, that person is me, so I'm looking forward to when the lab gets back to scoring the newest sequences.



Well, how about that!!

SNP L583, which I guess showed up on the Finch2 server today,  is from my WTY sequence, and it's likely one that will be an identifier for the Baltic Cluster (Eastern European Ashkenazic).  It would be very interesting if anybody outside of that cluster ends up testing positive for this SNP.



That is great. Congratulations. Let's get your Baltic buddies tested too.
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seferhabahir
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« Reply #69 on: June 01, 2011, 07:07:53 PM »

That is great. Congratulations. Let's get your Baltic buddies tested too.

Maybe I'll think about starting up a new R-L583 Project. We'll see how I do getting some of the "Baltic buddies" to test. I know there at least 25 who would most likely be positive.
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Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

mtDNA: J1c7a

rms2
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« Reply #70 on: June 01, 2011, 08:22:06 PM »

Is FTDNA offering a test for L583 yet?

I know they found it via the WTY, but when will it be available for general order?
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seferhabahir
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« Reply #71 on: June 01, 2011, 08:51:39 PM »

Is FTDNA offering a test for L583 yet?

I know they found it via the WTY, but when will it be available for general order?

 I checked and no test is available yet. Perhaps in a month or so would be my guess, based on their turnaround for offering new tests.
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seferhabahir
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« Reply #72 on: June 08, 2011, 10:34:16 AM »

Thanks for joining the conversation. I'm very interested in your thoughts and research.

I found a new R-L21 in the Jewish R1b project with a Jewish surname Cohen with oldest known ancestor Marcus Cohen b. 1830 in Poland. He is not yet in the R-L21 project but I encouraged him to join. His FTDNA Kit# is 2842. Non-Baltic Cluster Jewish names are very few and far between in the R-L21 project (Kimhi in the Spanish group is a notable exception, and Cohen only differs at 385 being a slightly unusual 11-16). He only has 12 markers, but he doesn't match any confirmed R-L21 even at 12.
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seferhabahir
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« Reply #73 on: June 08, 2011, 10:39:09 AM »

Thanks for joining the conversation. I'm very interested in your thoughts and research.

I found a new R-L21 in the Jewish R1b project with a Jewish surname Cohen with oldest known ancestor Marcus Cohen b. 1830 in Poland. He is not yet in the R-L21 project but I encouraged him to join. His FTDNA Kit# is 2842. Non-Baltic Cluster Jewish names are very few and far between in the R-L21 project (Kimhi in the Spanish group is a notable exception, and Cohen only differs at 385 being a slightly unusual 11-16). He only has 12 markers, but he doesn't match any confirmed R-L21 even at 12.

If and when a L583 test becomes available, maybe I can convince him to test for it. I would be flabbergasted if he actually came out positive, but you never know. I also suggested he think about upgrading to 67 markers.
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Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

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rms2
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« Reply #74 on: June 08, 2011, 07:00:40 PM »

Thanks for joining the conversation. I'm very interested in your thoughts and research.

I found a new R-L21 in the Jewish R1b project with a Jewish surname Cohen with oldest known ancestor Marcus Cohen b. 1830 in Poland. He is not yet in the R-L21 project but I encouraged him to join. His FTDNA Kit# is 2842. Non-Baltic Cluster Jewish names are very few and far between in the R-L21 project (Kimhi in the Spanish group is a notable exception, and Cohen only differs at 385 being a slightly unusual 11-16). He only has 12 markers, but he doesn't match any confirmed R-L21 even at 12.

Thanks. That's a new one. I was just checking that project a few days ago, and I didn't see him.
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