A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster

[pcusack1]

On second thought, I think they must have taken the southern route to Spain from Khazaria. From there on to the Netherlands before finally ending up in Ireland.

The individual that I match 15/17 markers is a Gayles - a Jewish Lithuanian name - is an Afro American.

The individual that I match GD 19 / 54 markers is Prager.  But I have closer matches to Irish and Spainish.

So that settles it.

[pcusack1]

I must be a Sephardic Jew instead of Ashkenasi R1b.  The individual that I was using for a match is a Gayles which is a  Lithuanian Jewish name. However, he an Afro American -not Lithunian.  So that settles that. Thnaks for your help. Good luck!

[Maliclavelli]

Prager is on the List of Rich and we all are thinking he is a Jew of European ancestry with the roots in the Rhine Valley and you, matching him at the GD of 19 over 54 markers, have a MRCA at least 2,500 years ago.
Re Afro-Americans, about 30% have an European male ancestor, above all from the British Isles. I don’t know if his surname is from Lithuanian Jews (I’ll be able to say something next), but his DNA certainly isn’t.

[pcusack1]

2500 years ago was approximately the end of the Babylonian Exile.  It supports the theory that there was a split from Babylon  -one north through Khazaria (Kazachstan) ot the Netherlands-and the other to Sephardic Spain to the Netherlands.

[pcusack1]

I'm also a close match to a Ponte FjZF3(Spanish name) from the Netherlands with a 17 GD on 54 markers.

In Ireland, I match a Ryan BEWXH with a GD of 14 on 54 markers.

[Maliclavelli]

2500 years ago was approximately the end of the Babylonian Exile.  It supports the theory that there was a split from Babylon  -one north through Khazaria (Kazachstan) ot the Netherlands-and the other to Sephardic Spain to the Netherlands.

I don't know the origin of this Ponte from Netherlands: anyway Ponte is an Italian surname (in Spanish it would be "Puente") and in Italy there are more than 3500 Ponte on the phone Directory.
I am finding your theories very queer. Anyway if you think to be a Jew, try to overcome the exam of Sean Silver and of the "R1b Jewish project".
Good luck!

[pcusack1]

Actually, you may be correct about the Spanish spelling . I got the variations from House of Names.

http://www.houseofnames.com/xq/asp.fc/Origin.SP/qx/Ponte-family-crest.htm

However, I just got another match for my Y DNA : Reifsnyder - which is a Russian Jewish name - according to the Jewish Surnames index.

Sean Silver needs to have at least a grandparent who is known to have been Jewish. I don't qualify.  But I still know that I'm an L21 R1b Jew.

[rms2]

I'm a confirmed L21 (S116) . . .

S116 is not the same thing as L21. S116 is Ethnoancestry's equivalent of P312. That company's name for L21 is "S145".

[pcusack1]

Actually, you're right. I'm an L21 /S145.  Thank you.

[pcusack1]

I think my ancestor must have come out of Khazaria then on to Spain. From Spain on to the Rhine River area. From there to Ireland.

I am showing mathces to Western Russians (all Jews as well). But its back 42 genrations. (16/18 markers). That would put him in Khazaria possibly in the 5 th Century.

I'm also showing a strong match to the Pyrenees. The top two at a GD of 0 are Pyrennes.  But my highest RMI is Irish.  At a GD of 2 the top 4 of 5 are Spainish and Portugal.

Is suspect that my ancestry came out of Khazaria on to Spain rather than Litthuania or Ashlkenazi Jewish (aside form my other bloodlines). They probably ended up in the Rhine I suspect if they are L21's inb the 6-8th Century.  I match a Lowe who is Jewish who were in the Rhine in 758AD.

Pleasae forgive me I'm still learning!

[pcusack1]

I am related to a Shuman (Ashkenasi, Poland, Russian) 17/18 markers in 24 genrations. Perhaps they did go rom Khazaria through Western Russia??

[rms2]

Please keep this thread on track by discussing the cluster characterized by the following marker values:

388=11
392=14
459b=9
464c=15

If someone who does not belong to the cluster above wants to discuss his own Jewish or other matches, then that person should start a separate thread. Otherwise we go down all sorts of avenues that detract from the object of the original discussion.

[rms2]

Please keep this thread on track by discussing the cluster characterized by the following marker values:

388=11
392=14
459b=9
464c=15

If someone who does not belong to the cluster above wants to discuss his own Jewish or other matches, then that person should start a separate thread. Otherwise we go down all sorts of avenues that detract from the object of the original discussion.

By the way, thus far I have found 19 different apparently Ashkenazi surnames that belong to this cluster, so it could be quite extensive.

Now if we could get even just a few of those folks tested for L21!

[rms2]

Here is a list of some of the probable members of this cluster whose names are either in YSearch or a public project:

1.  Prager (Lithuania, T8A6N)
2.  Lewis (original surname Lubatinsky; Lithuania, B2BNR)
3.  Kabo (Latvia, 534VG)
4.  Marcus (Ukraine, SJFHN)
5.  Millstein (unk origin, 2Y8VJ)
6.  Mednick (Ukraine, no YSearch entry)
7.  Weiler (Russia, EGNM6)
8.  Friedman (Russia, 8AAG6)
9.  Livio (original surname Livschitz; Finland, HDCDF)

Like I said, there are at least 10 other surnames possibly associated with this cluster, but they aren't in public databases.

[pcusack1]

My apoligizes.  I thought you might be interested in an L21 Ashkenasi Jew.  My markers don't match the 4 that you have as a clustered. But I think you'll find that the L21's came out of Jewish Khazaria, between the Black and Caspian Seas, and on to Western Russia (Lithuania, Poland and Rumania also) before ending in the Rhine in the 6-8 th C.

I thought you were looking for tested L21 Ashkenasi Jews as per your original thread.  But the rsduults don't show what you had in mind.

Thnaks for all your help.

[rms2]

My apoligizes.  I thought you might be interested in an L21 Ashkenasi Jew.  My markers don't match the 4 that you have as a clustered. But I think you'll find that the L21's came out of Jewish Khazaria, between the Black and Caspian Seas, and on to Western Russia (Lithuania, Poland and Rumania also) before ending in the Rhine in the 6-8 th C.

I thought you were looking for tested L21 Ashkenasi Jews as per your original thread.  But the rsduults don't show what you had in mind.

Thnaks for all your help.

No need to feel slighted. I am interested, so please start a separate thread.

I just wanted to keep this one focused on the original topic.

[pcusack1]

Actually, I don't have anything else to add , except that my Y Search ID is CC39H.  A word of caution:  I  match Ashkenasi's (Shumean) as well as Sephardi's ( Eadie) as well as many onther Jews. I haven't got it sorted out completedly yet. My testing was done at Genebase.com

Good Luck with your research!

[rms2]

Well, now we have two members of this cluster with L21 results pending, aside from Prager, who is already L21+.

[rms2]

We now have five members of this haplotype cluster as members of the R-L21 Plus Project. One of them (Prager) has already tested L21+. The other four are awaiting L21 results, and two of them have already tested P312+ and negative for everything downstream of it except L21.

So, we should have some confirmation on this cluster sometime soon (in the next month or two).

I'll keep you updated, but you can see it yourself on the Y-DNA Results page of the R-L21 Plus Project.

[rms2]

Kabo (Latvia, 534VG) has gone L21+!

He is now in the Eastern Europe category on the Y-DNA Results page of the R-L21 Plus Project.

[vtilroe]

Excellent!  Nice going!

[rms2]

Excellent!  Nice going!

Thanks! It's pretty exciting to see this cluster confirmed.

[rms2]

Two more members of this cluster have gotten L21+ results: Madan and Lewis (Lubatinsky).

There was some miscommunication between Lewis and me early on. I thought he already had L21+ results, but now that is moot: he has been tested and is L21+.

That makes four members of this cluster who have tested L21+ thus far: Kabo, Lewis, Madan, and Prager.

As I mentioned before, I have found at least 19 different, apparently Ashkenazi surnames belonging to members of this cluster.

[GoldenHind]

Two more members of this cluster have gotten L21+ results: Madan and Lewis (Lubatinsky).

There was some miscommunication between Lewis and me early on. I thought he already had L21+ results, but now that is moot: he has been tested and is L21+.

That makes four members of this cluster who have tested L21+ thus far: Kabo, Lewis, Madan, and Prager.

As I mentioned before, I have found at least 19 different, apparently Ashkenazi surnames belonging to members of this cluster.

I can't find any previous reference to Madan. Could you kindly provide details?

[Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen]

"There was some miscommunication between Lewis and me early on."

Yeah, I had miscommunication problems last year with someone who turned out not to be R-U152 after all. Glad you worked through the miscommunication. It takes some effort to sort things out when you can only communicate through e-mail.

Nice work on this R-L21 group, though. 

Thanks,