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Author Topic: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster  (Read 12344 times)
rms2
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« on: July 11, 2009, 09:28:38 PM »

I think I may have stumbled upon something interesting: an Eastern European Ashkenazi R-L21* group or cluster with the following off-modal values -

388=11
392=14
459b=9
464c=15
and (for the two of them with enough markers in YSearch thus far)
CDYa,b=39,41

Prager (Lithuania, T8A6N), who belongs to this cluster, has tested L21+ and is a member of the R-L21 Plus Project.

The others are Kabo (from Latvia, 534VG), Lewis (Lithuania; original surname Lubatinsky, B2BNR), Marcus (from Ukraine, SJFHN), and Millstein (unk origin, 2Y8VJ). Kabo only has 25 markers in YSearch, but I know he actually matches Prager 33/37. Prager also has at least three other Ashkenazi matches that are not currently in YSearch, one of which is 34/37, but we'll stick to the ones in YSearch, which are public.

I am thinking that all of these men are R-L21*.   

Opinions?
« Last Edit: August 03, 2009, 12:03:32 PM by rms2 » Logged

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2009, 02:03:23 AM »

What do you mean with "R-L21 Ashkenazi cluster"? That some Ashkenazi are R-L21, but, being R-L21 probably very recent, these Ashkenazim are probably of recent European origin, like I think having demonstrated also for many others. You can discover if this is true: if you go on Ysearch, you will probably find that these guys are very close each other, usually within a GD od 4  over 25 markers, but at a greater GD (5 or more) you begin to find  not Jews. Usually this fact does mean that the introgression happened from 800 to 1200 years ago, probably in the Rhine Valley.
Now I will do this reasearch too, and after I'll write something to you. But if I won't write, it will mean that it'll be useless.
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Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2009, 02:38:32 AM »

They find a not Jew already at a GD of 4 over 25 markers, but the true problem is that they have mutations just on very slow mutating markers, but if you are sure that two of them are tested R-L21, you can solve the problem watching at W4225, a Peterson from Denemark, who has DYS392=14 and DYS464= 15,15,15,16. I think that the solution is in the fact that Jews, after having had introgressions from Italy or from the Rhine Valley, have preserved some cluster becoming rare or extinct in the place of origin for genetic drift and founder effect. Probably the same happened with R-L23 (- and +) they can have introgressed from the Roman Empire time.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 03:05:28 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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rms2
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« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2009, 09:14:15 AM »

I wasn't trying to comment on their prehistoric origins. If I am right, I think these men are all L21+ and probably share a common ancestor perhaps as recently as the Middle Ages. And I was thinking the group's origin is probably West Central Europe, but that is just a guess based on the current distribution of L21.

I have heard from Kabo. He has ordered an L21 test. Kabo has many exact 12-marker matches with men with Ashkenazi-looking surnames. I know 12 markers are not enough, but two of the seemingly important off-modal markers for this group (if it is a group), 388 and 392, are in the first 12 markers.

If I can get a few more of these men to test for L21, we'll see if I am right and this is a real L21 cluster.

I think there may be something to this.

« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 09:18:20 AM by rms2 » Logged

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2009, 11:34:11 AM »

Alan R writes on “Genealogy-dna”: “I really think it’s time to open our eyes, look at the continental distributions of the main western European R1b clades and stop all this L21=isles, S21=Germanic and S28=Alpine Celtic labelling.  It just does not appear to stand up to scrutiny if you look at the FTDNA projects maps with an open mind”.

Probably we have won our fight and my friend Gioiello hasn’t yet lost his: where did the ancestors of L21/S21/S28 come from?

In this sense to investigate “Jewish clusters” can be useful for what I said above. 



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Maliclavelli


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rms2
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« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2009, 04:13:03 PM »

Alan R writes on “Genealogy-dna”: “I really think it’s time to open our eyes, look at the continental distributions of the main western European R1b clades and stop all this L21=isles, S21=Germanic and S28=Alpine Celtic labelling.  It just does not appear to stand up to scrutiny if you look at the FTDNA projects maps with an open mind”.

Probably we have won our fight and my friend Gioiello hasn’t yet lost his: where did the ancestors of L21/S21/S28 come from?

In this sense to investigate “Jewish clusters” can be useful for what I said above. 

I find it interesting for its own sake and also because I think it points toward Central Europe for the origin of L21. There is no way that I can see that a reasonable person could make these folks into the descendants of wayward Irish monks or wandering Scottish merchants.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2009, 01:43:12 AM »

Alan R writes on “Genealogy-dna”: “I really think it’s time to open our eyes, look at the continental distributions of the main western European R1b clades and stop all this L21=isles, S21=Germanic and S28=Alpine Celtic labelling.  It just does not appear to stand up to scrutiny if you look at the FTDNA projects maps with an open mind”.

Probably we have won our fight and my friend Gioiello hasn’t yet lost his: where did the ancestors of L21/S21/S28 come from?

In this sense to investigate “Jewish clusters” can be useful for what I said above.  

I find it interesting for its own sake and also because I think it points toward Central Europe for the origin of L21. There is no way that I can see that a reasonable person could make these folks into the descendants of wayward Irish monks or wandering Scottish merchants.
You forgot the Britons who were all over the continent fighting as Roman Auxiliaries. LOL.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2009, 08:23:42 AM by Mike » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2009, 08:27:00 AM »

How do we know these guys (Prago, Lewis/Lubatinsky, Kabo) are Ashkenazi?
By that I mean no offense, just is this what they state? or is it that they are just close matches with people who state they are Ashkenazi?
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2009, 09:27:49 AM »

They are undoubtedly Ashkenazim by their surname, by their location of origin, by their relatedness within a GD of 3 over 25 markers, demonstrating a recent common ancestor, etc.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2009, 09:31:33 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2009, 02:35:42 PM »

Alan R writes on “Genealogy-dna”: “I really think it’s time to open our eyes, look at the continental distributions of the main western European R1b clades and stop all this L21=isles, S21=Germanic and S28=Alpine Celtic labelling.  It just does not appear to stand up to scrutiny if you look at the FTDNA projects maps with an open mind”.
This is a position I have maintained for some years. The idea that these subclades were equivalent to the named ethnic groups was adopted almost immediately after their discovery, and was largely promulgated by a few people who wanted to identify their ancestors as Celtic, Germanic or British. They have to jump through all sorts of hoops to explain away the results that don't fit their preconceptions.
Unfortunately this notion is still prevalent today, and it seems no amount of evidence is sufficient to change most people's minds.
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rms2
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« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2009, 02:43:18 PM »

How do we know these guys (Prago, Lewis/Lubatinsky, Kabo) are Ashkenazi?
By that I mean no offense, just is this what they state? or is it that they are just close matches with people who state they are Ashkenazi?

Maliclavelli is right, but also these folks have identified themselves as Ashkenazim.

Prager and Lewis are members of the Jewish R1b Project and have been placed in a category on the project's Y-DNA Results page. Sean Silver doesn't assign members to a category until he has confirmed that they are indeed Jewish. Kabo has joined the Jewish R1b Project but is still in the "Unassigned" category. However, I know from email communication that his widow has his genealogy established pretty firmly, and it is Jewish.

« Last Edit: July 14, 2009, 02:45:19 PM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2009, 09:38:16 PM »

I just happened to spot a member of this cluster I did not know about: Mednick, kit 733, on the Y-DNA Results page of the Jewish R1b Project, with origin in Kamenets-Podolsk, Ukraine, which is the same area my wife's mother's family is from.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 09:51:12 PM by rms2 » Logged

Mike Walsh
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« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2009, 12:32:47 PM »

Just to make sure I have it right.  Here is the current line-up for this cluster, correct?

R-L21* confirmed:
T8A6N = Prager > Lithuania.
B2BNR = Lewis/Lubatinsky > Lithuania

R-L21* predicted:
534VG = Kabo > Latvia
SJFHN = Marcus > Ukraine
2Y8VJ = Millstein > unknown
733 = Mednick > Kamenets-Podolski, Ukraine

Also, is it okay to use the term Ashkenazi in labeling this cluster?  Don't want to offend anyone either by inclusion or exclusion.
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rms2
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« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2009, 09:08:39 AM »

Just to make sure I have it right.  Here is the current line-up for this cluster, correct?

R-L21* confirmed:
T8A6N = Prager > Lithuania.
B2BNR = Lewis/Lubatinsky > Lithuania

R-L21* predicted:
534VG = Kabo > Latvia
SJFHN = Marcus > Ukraine
2Y8VJ = Millstein > unknown
733 = Mednick > Kamenets-Podolski, Ukraine

Also, is it okay to use the term Ashkenazi in labeling this cluster?  Don't want to offend anyone either by inclusion or exclusion.

That's right, and there are a bunch of others who aren't in YSearch or, as fas I know, in any of the public projects.

I guess the term Ashkenazi is okay to use for the cluster. It seems the most accurate. I guess it could branch out and include folks who have no known Ashkenazi heritage, so maybe some other name would be more appropriate.

I found one Frenchman, Thierry (DPVGV), who appears to belong to the cluster. I emailed him but have gotten no response.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2009, 09:09:20 AM by rms2 » Logged

pcusack1
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« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2009, 06:33:17 PM »

I'm a confirmed L21 (S116). But to my surprize to an Irish Catholic, form Tipperary since 1834, my Y DNA is showing Babylonian, Khazarian, Lithuanian, and Belgium and Spainish place markers.

All four grandparents show Jewish ancestry throuhg DNA testing and surnames matching . My materal line and fathers maternal line are Ashkenasi Jewish. While my Y DNA and mothers praternal line is Sephardic Jewish.  So it appears that I'm an R1b Ashkenasi Jew.  (They intermixed with the Sephardic Jews along the Pyrennes.)

It appears my ancestors went form Babylon, to Jewish Khazaria, to Lithuania, and on to either Spain (Pyrennes / N. Portugal) or the Netherlands (Rhine River) around the 8th C. Could L21 (R1b1b2a1b6) be a rare Jewish subclade? I'm guessing that the subclade split in Babylon - some on to Spain and others on to the Netherlands before crossing the Channel.

I also have that rare marker DYS 391=12. My Y Search is Q7N4B

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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2009, 01:06:03 AM »

Dear Cusack, I don't know by which paper trail you have reconstruct your ancestry (and surname Cusack can make us think to an Eastern Origin: Cossack?), but your DNA is undoubtedly "Irish": you find only Irish (or British) R-L21 within a GD of 3 or 4 over 25 markers. I think yours isn't at all a "Possible Ashkenazi R-L21 cluster", which, when it exists, comes from a German R-L21 and not from an Irish one. Probably there weren't Jews in Ireland at that Genetic Distance.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2009, 01:28:47 AM »

Probably your DYS464 isn't 13,16,19 but 13,13,16,19. It would be also something to say on who did your exam.
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Maliclavelli


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pcusack1
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« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2009, 10:17:54 AM »

My DYS 464 is indeed 13, 16, 19. You can check this on Y Search.  My paper trail  leads to Ireland.  We are definitely not Cossack's. Cusack is supposedly of Norman Irish origin formm Cussac France.  But there are no L21's in that area.  Nevertherless, I may well be Irish or even perhaps of Spanish origin. My closest match fo on 54 markers is Irish (gd =14 ) ; Spanish Netherlands (gd=17) a nd then Lithuanian (gd=19).
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2009, 10:41:14 AM »

I checked your DYS464 on Ysearch, but who put the data? The closest to you have 13,13 in DYS464a,b, and it is probable you are the same. A result of 13,13 has a unique peak and must be read as a double one. Otherwise ask who did your test where have you lost a "peak". My friend Geppo would say: ah ah ah ah...
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2009, 11:07:41 AM »

I have a printout form Y Search in front of me and it is a 13, 16, 19 for DYS 464a, b, c.  d is lfet blank.  I was tested by Genebase and I put the data in myself.
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pcusack1
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« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2009, 11:21:36 AM »

I tested against a Spanisard (Madrid) and had 23/30 markers match withthat all  important 391=12 a match. Also, genebase is NOT showing a match to Ashkenasi Jews. It's showing primarily Spainish and Irish. I may well not be an Ashkenazi L21 afterall.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2009, 11:27:57 AM »

And I think that Genebase is wrong and probably you are DYS464= 13,13,16,19, otherwise you have lost a segment, but they should be sure on this. I think you should ask for your plot.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2009, 11:32:11 AM »

DYS391=12 isn't rare at all. I think it is the modal for Irish R-L21!
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Maliclavelli


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pcusack1
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« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2009, 11:37:38 AM »

Yes.But it also appears in Spain, Pyrenees, Portugal, Germany, Munster , Wesphalia, etc

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gallgaedhil/haplo_r1b_dys391_12.htm
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pcusack1
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« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2009, 11:54:12 AM »

If you do a Y Search run on R1b1b2a1b, you'll see that there are few DYS391=12.
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