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rms2
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« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2009, 09:20:00 PM »

...no

2 Irishmen and one Highlander

All from the British Isles.
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OConnor
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« Reply #26 on: December 31, 2009, 10:17:47 PM »

 That part of Germany is getting towards Switzerland which in the 7th century formed part of Frankish kingdom. The horse would have helped move haplotypes all over the place.
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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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rms2
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« Reply #27 on: January 01, 2010, 10:49:36 AM »

That part of Germany is getting towards Switzerland which in the 7th century formed part of Frankish kingdom. The horse would have helped move haplotypes all over the place.

My point is that our databases are heavily skewed toward the British Isles. That affects R1b more than any other haplogroup, because the British Isles are predominantly R1b.

I see the effects of it in my projects. Anytime a continental guy gets an R1b result of some kind, he immediately suspects his ancestor was British or Irish, when that is probably not the case at all. And look at what happened almost immediately after L21 was discovered. All sorts of people instantly assumed L21 originated somewhere in the British Isles. That delusion is still being pursued here and there, despite the growing body of continental evidence.

I was just pointing out that the Ergolding remains have their closest matches in the British Isles, not because those warriors were from the British Isles, but because of the nature of the genealogical databases.
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OConnor
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« Reply #28 on: January 01, 2010, 01:28:44 PM »

In life if something looks and smells like a skunk it usually is.
R1B has proven to be a real stinker to figure out.

We are still in the pioneering stages of dna genealogy.
Finding more snps is the way to go.
Another 10 years should help paint a better picture.





 

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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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rms2
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« Reply #29 on: January 01, 2010, 03:14:02 PM »

In real life not everything in the weasel family is a skunk, but when you run over them at night on a country road, they all kind of smell the same. ;-)
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OConnor
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« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2010, 11:57:31 AM »


Skunks belong to the family Mephitidae

Recent genetic evidence suggests that the skunks are not as closely related to the mustelids as previously thought; they are now classified in their own family,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skunk
I have seen very few weasels, but I doubt that a weasel could match the stink of a skunk.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

I wonder if the Warrior's bones could reveal anything about their death?
Whether they died of trauma or possible illness'
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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rms2
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« Reply #31 on: January 03, 2010, 01:38:54 PM »

Probably those scientists do know the cause of death for the Ergolding remains, but I don't remember them mentioning it in the report.

The whole point about the British Isles Ysearch matches was that the genetic genealogy databases are so overloaded with British Isles results relative to continental results, especially when it comes to R1b, that every sort of R1b begins to look British, even 7th century Bavarian skeletons.

And that is why so many hasty people immediately jumped to the conclusion that L21 originated in the British Isles after the first dozen or so test results back in November of 2008.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2010, 01:41:15 PM by rms2 » Logged

OConnor
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« Reply #32 on: January 03, 2010, 05:02:58 PM »

Yes I understand that the results are overwhelmed on the side of the Isles.

The scale may always be unbalanced as far as the number of people tested. I guess we have to figure what kind of numbers we need  from the mainland, and at some point compare them.

If FamilyTreeDNA could find the Warrior's SNP's, it would be a good marketing tool.
  

« Last Edit: January 03, 2010, 05:59:57 PM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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OConnor
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« Reply #33 on: January 13, 2010, 04:44:29 PM »

I emailed Daniel Vanek about the Warrior's results. He was kind enough to email me back.

I pasted it below:


aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Thank you for your interesting e-mail.

You are absolutely right that testing SNPs on the ancient bones would bring much more information about the individuals.

Unfortunately we do not have in place the technology for SNP typing and are able just to perform STR typing. However we plan to expand the set of polymorphic systems we test and prepare a SNaPshot multiplex for a precise Y-chromosome SNP typing. The second step will be the validation of the SNaPshot multiplex and after all of that we can start with the ancient bones.

Best regards
Daniel
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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rms2
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« Reply #34 on: January 13, 2010, 08:02:27 PM »

I emailed Daniel Vanek about the Warrior's results. He was kind enough to email me back.

I pasted it below:


aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Thank you for your interesting e-mail.

You are absolutely right that testing SNPs on the ancient bones would bring much more information about the individuals.

Unfortunately we do not have in place the technology for SNP typing and are able just to perform STR typing. However we plan to expand the set of polymorphic systems we test and prepare a SNaPshot multiplex for a precise Y-chromosome SNP typing. The second step will be the validation of the SNaPshot multiplex and after all of that we can start with the ancient bones.

Best regards
Daniel


Awesome! Great work, Mike!
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OConnor
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« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2010, 06:13:08 PM »

I sent Daniel a thank-you,

Also I sent links to this forum, dna-forums.com, and the R-L21 project.
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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rms2
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« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2010, 07:35:05 PM »

I wish they could get some y-dna results (with SNPs) from these old bones.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #37 on: January 17, 2010, 08:41:03 PM »

I wish they could get some y-dna results (with SNPs) from these old bones.
I suspect Dr. Faux could tell you that an SNP test wouldn't be necessary to confirm his U152 atatus.
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OConnor
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« Reply #38 on: January 17, 2010, 09:00:27 PM »

The Celtic Prince was no wee irishman 6'3" :)
« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 07:47:24 PM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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rms2
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« Reply #39 on: January 18, 2010, 10:22:39 AM »

I wish they could get some y-dna results (with SNPs) from these old bones.
I suspect Dr. Faux could tell you that an SNP test wouldn't be necessary to confirm his U152 atatus.

You're probably right, but I would like to see some actual test reports.

I mean, maybe he wasn't even any kind of R1b, but it would be nice to know what he was.

Of course, a single result wouldn't mean that all the other Celtic chiefs in all the other burial mounds were the same . . .
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OConnor
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« Reply #40 on: January 18, 2010, 10:32:54 AM »

After some thought I wondered what the Soldiers related male ancestors strs would look like today?

After 1300 years can we expect a GD of 1 or 2?..or 4


If they had descendants (and there could be a lot of them out there), we should expect a few mutations by now, perhaps as many as ten at 67 markers, I think.

I was wondering about my distance of 20+ with some R-L159.2 guys.

I was impressed with the grave finds of the Celtic King. Pointy little boots and a wood hat.
It makes me think about clothing back then. I'm sure people wore more colour than we show in sketches of people of the time.

That is a great site stevo...thanks
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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rms2
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« Reply #41 on: January 18, 2010, 10:44:07 AM »

I was wondering about my distance of 20+ with some R-L159.2 guys.

I was impressed with the grave finds of the Celtic King. Pointy little boots and a wood hat.
It makes me think about clothing back then. I'm sure people wore more colour than we show in sketches of people of the time.

That is a great site stevo...thanks

As I recall, those same kind of pointy hats were found with some of the Takla Makan mummies, but I haven't been able to find any photos of those hats.

Wikipedia has a pretty good photo of the reconstructed inside of the Hochdorf Prince's tomb:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hochdorf_keltenmuseum0815.jpg
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rms2
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« Reply #42 on: January 18, 2010, 10:54:02 AM »

Here is another Celtic burial mound not too far from Hochdorf (both are near Stuttgart in SW Germany):

http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM17D6_Kilchberg_Celtic_Burial_Mound

Maybe I should start a separate thread on this topic.
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