World Families Forums - R1b Mounted Warriors from 7th Century German Burial

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
July 30, 2014, 01:30:12 PM
Home Help Search Login Register

+  World Families Forums
|-+  General Forums - Note: You must Be Logged In to post. Anyone can browse.
| |-+  R1b General (Moderator: rms2)
| | |-+  R1b Mounted Warriors from 7th Century German Burial
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 Go Down Print
Author Topic: R1b Mounted Warriors from 7th Century German Burial  (Read 3972 times)
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« on: July 04, 2009, 03:30:31 PM »

I know this has been discussed elsewhere before, but I hadn't read the report until today.

Here is the abstract:

Quote
Results For 244A, 244B, 244C samples, full autosomal DNA
profiles (15 STR markers and Amelogenin) and for 244D,
244E, 244F samples, MiniFiler profiles were produced. Ychromosome
haplotypes consisting of up to 24 STR markers
were determined and used to predict the Y-chromosome
haplogroups and compare the resulting haplotypes
with the current population. Samples 244A, 244B, 244C,
and 244D belong to Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b
and
the samples 244E and 244F to haplogroup G2a. Comparison
of ancient haplotypes with the current population
yielded numerous close matches with genetic distance
bellow [sic] 2.

Conclusion Application of forensic genetics in archaeology
enables retrieving new types of information and helps
in data interpretation. The number of successfully typed
autosomal and Y-STR loci from ancient specimens in this
study is one of the largest published so far for aged samples.

What I found really interesting was the following.

Quote
Individuals found in the western
part of the chamber (244A, 244B, and 244C) lied [sic] straight
on the back, body-by-body, and all 3 men were buried
with swords, spears, shields, and spurs, like heavily armored
mounted warriors
(9). Historic value of the artifacts
found in the grave 244 makes this place one of the richest
Bavarian burial sites from the late-Merowig period (9). The
grave 244 dates to the period around 670 AD.[page 287]

. . . Samples 244A, 244B, 244C, and 244D belonged
to the Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b . . . [page 290]

Ergolding, Bayern, Germany
« Last Edit: July 04, 2009, 06:10:22 PM by rms2 » Logged

Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2963


WWW
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2009, 01:03:07 AM »

Looks like folks related to some British Isles folks.  7th century AD would be in the depths of the Dark Ages.  What do you think are the implications that they were heavily armoured?  or elsewise?
Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2009, 09:21:23 AM »

Looks like folks related to some British Isles folks.  7th century AD would be in the depths of the Dark Ages.  What do you think are the implications that they were heavily armoured?  or elsewise?

That report didn't have much information about the burial itself or the artifacts, so, I don't know if those warriors were Bavarians or Franks or Saxons or what.

Judging from the matches from YSearch they have listed (neat that they did that), it looks like they might have been R-U106 of some kind, but there's no real way to tell from just 24 markers.

I hope this is a good sign and that scientists start getting some legitimate, uncontaminated y-dna from more old archaeological sites. I would really like to see them try for some y-dna from the Amesbury Archer and the Hochdorf Chieftain.
Logged

Jafety R1b-U152
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 82


« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2009, 03:34:06 AM »

244F has 7 GD at 17 markers from my maternal grandpa (G2a3b1). That's funny...

I know somewhere I saw but I cant remember, so can anyone please tell me which markers and what values make a clear difference between U106 and P312?
It would be useful for many research to know.
Logged

Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b4 (S28/U-152) L2 test pending
Earliest known paternal ancestor: Matthias Fejer, b. 1819, Jaszarokszallas, Jasz county, Central Hungary
MtDNA: U4 (Western Siberian Ugric)
GoldenHind
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 731


« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2009, 03:31:05 PM »

244F has 7 GD at 17 markers from my maternal grandpa (G2a3b1). That's funny...

I know somewhere I saw but I cant remember, so can anyone please tell me which markers and what values make a clear difference between U106 and P312?
It would be useful for many research to know.
So far as I am aware, the only reasonably reliable one is 492, and even that is only about 80% accurate. 492=12 is generally P312 and 13 is usually U106. Trying to determine R1b-M269 subclades from STR markers alone is extremely difficult.
Logged
OConnor
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 676


« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2009, 01:56:29 PM »

Great find Stevo

I have been reading about the Franks lately. I can guess you have seen my associated posting in the Swiss L21 thread.

I have not heard any mention of the Franks in any topics.
I suspect the Franks have assisted in the spread Continental L21.

In reading about the Franks i remembered this topic which seemed to fit the time period.

http://www.jrank.org/history/pages/6096/Franks-Frankish-Empire.html
The Franks buried their people with their weapons.

"By the middle of the sixth century the Frankish kingdom was the most politically united, militarily successful, and economically prosperous of all the barbarian kingdoms established in the former Roman Empire. Archaeologists have discovered their dress fashions and burial fashions imitated across a wide area of western Europe."

Read more: Franks and the Frankish Empire - Reihengräber, The Franks, Naissance de la France http://www.jrank.org/history/pages/6096/Franks-Frankish-Empire.html#ixzz0ad6WQzUr

I would love to see snp testing.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2009, 01:58:18 PM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2009, 05:32:15 PM »

I'm not sure about the Franks, but I'm pretty sure most of the Beans were probably L21+. ;-)

You know, like Mr. Bean.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2009, 05:32:34 PM by rms2 » Logged

Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2963


WWW
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2009, 07:54:28 PM »

244F has 7 GD at 17 markers from my maternal grandpa (G2a3b1). That's funny...

I know somewhere I saw but I cant remember, so can anyone please tell me which markers and what values make a clear difference between U106 and P312?
It would be useful for many research to know.
So far as I am aware, the only reasonably reliable one is 492, and even that is only about 80% accurate. 492=12 is generally P312 and 13 is usually U106. Trying to determine R1b-M269 subclades from STR markers alone is extremely difficult.
Yes, STR's are not (edit: missed a key word) from foolproof in discerning P312, U106 and downstream subclades.  492=13 is rare for L21+ but there are six that I'm aware of.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2009, 09:56:13 PM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
GoldenHind
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 731


« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2009, 09:23:22 PM »

When these results were first announced, different people rushed forward to proclaim these haplotypes were obviously U106 or U152, depending, of course, on what their particular subclade happened to be.
I just had a look at the Ysearch entries for them. For H78RA there were four 21/24 matches. Three of them were L21 and the fourth, not deep clade tested, was a Lindsay from Scotland.
One can certainly see why they were all proclaimed to be obviously U106 or U152, can't one?
Or maybe this particular one was a Celtic mercenary serving in the Frankish army,  a wandering Irish monk serving as a Frankish chaplain or had shipped out of Scotland on the Aberdeen/Ergolding steamship line?
Anything but a genuine Frank, which would clearly be heretical.
Logged
OConnor
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 676


« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2009, 01:34:00 PM »

After some thought I wondered what the Soldiers related male ancestors strs would look like today?

After 1300 years can we expect a GD of 1 or 2?..or 4

I`m not saying that these males have direct male ancestors.
Perhaps their cousins did.

 

« Last Edit: December 26, 2009, 01:34:56 PM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2009, 02:39:58 PM »

After some thought I wondered what the Soldiers related male ancestors strs would look like today?

After 1300 years can we expect a GD of 1 or 2?..or 4

I`m not saying that these males have direct male ancestors.
Perhaps their cousins did.

If they had descendants (and there could be a lot of them out there), we should expect a few mutations by now, perhaps as many as ten at 67 markers, I think.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2009, 02:40:29 PM by rms2 » Logged

vtilroe
Project Coordinator
Old Hand
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 150


« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2009, 03:24:52 PM »

After some thought I wondered what the Soldiers related male ancestors strs would look like today?

After 1300 years can we expect a GD of 1 or 2?..or 4

I`m not saying that these males have direct male ancestors.
Perhaps their cousins did.

If they had descendants (and there could be a lot of them out there), we should expect a few mutations by now, perhaps as many as ten at 67 markers, I think.

According to Ann Turner's mutation calculator @ http://www.dnacousins.com/ ...
a) for two 67 marker haplotypes with a presumed MRCA circa 1300 years ago:
b) assume average mutation rate = 0.0024 (average mutations per locus per transmission)
c) assume each generation (transmission event period) = 30 years; therefore 2*(1300/30) = approx. 86 transmission events)

Click on Calculate and the "expected" number of mutations is about 13.8, with a 51.7% chance of being more than 14 mutations  and only a <2% chance of being less than 7 mutations.

Edit: (I think this is a bit theoretical, and presumes that all mutation events are observable.  However I do not believe that it models the likely behavior of locii to back-mutate, which implies that the number of observed mutations will be less than the number of actual mutations, therefore I suspect that these numbers could be a bit on the high side.)
« Last Edit: December 26, 2009, 03:39:20 PM by vtilroe » Logged

YSearch & MitoSearch: 2GXWW


yDNA: R-U106*


mtDNA: U5a1a1 (Genbank# GQ368895)


R-P312-WTY Project Admin http://tinyurl.com/daertg

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2009, 03:28:44 PM »

After some thought I wondered what the Soldiers related male ancestors strs would look like today?

After 1300 years can we expect a GD of 1 or 2?..or 4

I`m not saying that these males have direct male ancestors.
Perhaps their cousins did.

If they had descendants (and there could be a lot of them out there), we should expect a few mutations by now, perhaps as many as ten at 67 markers, I think.

According to Ann Turner's mutation calculator @ http://www.dnacousins.com/ ...
a) for two 67 marker haplotypes with a presumed MRCA circa 1300 years ago:
b) assume average mutation rate = 0.0024 (average mutations per locus per transmission)
c) assume each generation (transmission event period) = 30 years; therefore 2*(1300/30) = approx. 86 transmission events)

Click on Calculate and the "expected" number of mutations is about 13.8, with a 51.7% chance of being more than 14 mutations  and only a <2% chance of being less than 7 mutations.


So, I wasn't too far off in my guesstimate.

Which means it would be pretty tough to identify descendants of those Ergolding skeletons, even if they could get 67 markers from them.

It would be nice if we knew their subclades though. That at least would be very helpful.
Logged

vtilroe
Project Coordinator
Old Hand
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 150


« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2009, 03:41:12 PM »

Edit made to post above.
Logged

YSearch & MitoSearch: 2GXWW


yDNA: R-U106*


mtDNA: U5a1a1 (Genbank# GQ368895)


R-P312-WTY Project Admin http://tinyurl.com/daertg

vtilroe
Project Coordinator
Old Hand
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 150


« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2009, 03:49:58 PM »

^ [slaps head] Oh that's why the number seemed so high - I should have only used 43 transmission events, which brings down the # of mutations to about 7, and the 95% confidence interval to between 2 to 13 mutations.
Logged

YSearch & MitoSearch: 2GXWW


yDNA: R-U106*


mtDNA: U5a1a1 (Genbank# GQ368895)


R-P312-WTY Project Admin http://tinyurl.com/daertg

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2009, 05:52:30 PM »

^ [slaps head] Oh that's why the number seemed so high - I should have only used 43 transmission events, which brings down the # of mutations to about 7, and the 95% confidence interval to between 2 to 13 mutations.

Ah, okay. I still wasn't too far off.
Logged

bart otoole
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 20


« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2009, 11:21:24 PM »

Well, I don't think they are my relatives.

GD's 5/18 and 8/23

But it was neat to test against them.
Logged

yDNA L21+ null 425


mtDNA T2e

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2009, 10:08:42 AM »

With H78RA I'm 14/24 (gd of 10). With 6QUDR I'm 16/24 (gd of 8).

So, a relationship is remotely possible, but unlikely.

You're right. It was kind of fun checking that out. I hope we see more medieval stuff like that and maybe even some ancient y-dna.
Logged

bart otoole
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 20


« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2009, 11:54:18 AM »

6QUDR - a gd of 7

were there 3?

I had found H78RA and ZYRUU
Logged

yDNA L21+ null 425


mtDNA T2e

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2009, 12:14:39 PM »

6QUDR - a gd of 7

were there 3?

I had found H78RA and ZYRUU

ZYRUU?

I saw only H78RA and 6QUDR in the report.
Logged

bart otoole
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 20


« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2009, 12:39:53 PM »

i did a ysearch on names using 'unknown'

unknown skeleton 244d, 244c, 244ea, 244eb, 244f

all came up.  I ignored the g's
Logged

yDNA L21+ null 425


mtDNA T2e

GoldenHind
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 731


« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2009, 04:32:07 PM »

6QUDR - a gd of 7

were there 3?

I had found H78RA and ZYRUU

ZYRUU?
I saw only H78RA and 6QUDR in the report.

There are a total of three listed on Ysearch, 6QUDR, H78RA and ZYRUU.

Logged
OConnor
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 676


« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2009, 09:44:13 AM »

(Me MPZR9), 6QUDR, H78RA, ZYRUU

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18 9 10 25 15 19 29 10 16 12 23 13
13 23 14 10 11 14 12 12 ---13 13 29 17 9 10 24 15 19 29 11 16 12 23 13
13 23 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 ---18 9 10 24 15 19 29 11 16 12 23 13
13 24 ---11 11 14 12 ---12 13 13 29 18 8 10 ---15----29 10 15 12 23
« Last Edit: December 28, 2009, 09:49:34 AM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2009, 11:27:38 AM »

Did you all notice something about those Ysearch entries?

Almost all of their matches or close neighbors listed British Isles ancestry!

That might lead the hasty to conclude that those three armored warriors from Ergolding in Bavaria were all Brits.

Get the picture?

That shows you just how much the massively disproportionate British Isles representation in genetic genealogy databases is skewing results and coloring what we see.
Logged

OConnor
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 676


« Reply #24 on: December 31, 2009, 07:58:57 PM »

...no

2 Irishmen and one Highlander
Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


Pages: [1] 2 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


SEO light theme by © Mustang forums. Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC

Page created in 0.088 seconds with 19 queries.