R-L21* haplotypes that relate to R-M222: an indication of M222+ origin?

[Mikewww]

M222+ is the SNP state labeled as Northwest Irish that appears to be connected to Gaelic peoples and even to the famous Ui Neill heritage.  ... and of course the first M222+ man came from an R-L21* father.

It's been noted on several forums by people like VV that the R-M222 cluster of haplotypes seems to be set apart from most of the rest of the R-M269 haplotypes in Europe.  The rest seem to center around the Western Atlantic Modal.

Could there be some extant R-L21* that match closely with R-M222 people.

On another forum, a Welsh researcher, Robert Hughes, "the Ui Neill people are reasonably close to the Wales & Anglo-Saxon 17-14-10 DNA signature."  Robert has a Ysearch ID for 17-14-10 as S9R4J, originally named "Wales Modal I".  The signature markers are 448=17, 456=14 and 450=10.

The R-M222 modal is at M5UKQ. According to the R-M222 project web site the key markers are 390 = 25, 385b = 13, 392 = 14, 448 = 18, 449 = 30, 464 = 15-16-16-17, 456 = 17, 607 = 16, 413 = 21-23, 534 = 16, 481 = 25 and 714 = 24.

I'm trying to see the similarity between the groups of haplotypes but haven't really figured out what Hughes is seeing.  Does any see some common markers between R-M222 and any subset of 17-14-10 folks?

If there are extant R-L21* that are somewhat closely related to R-M222, and if those haplotypes are geographically grouped, perhaps that indicates an origin or early expansion of R-M222.   Would it?

[susanrosine]

M222+ is the SNP state labeled as Northwest Irish that appears to be connected to Gaelic peoples and even to the famous Ui Neill heritage.  ... and of course the first M222+ man came from an R-L21* father.

It's been noted on several forums by people like VV that the R-M222 cluster of haplotypes seems to be set apart from most of the rest of the R-M269 haplotypes in Europe.  The rest seem to center around the Western Atlantic Modal.

Could there be some extant R-L21* that match closely with R-M222 people.

On another forum, a Welsh researcher, Robert Hughes, "the Ui Neill people are reasonably close to the Wales & Anglo-Saxon 17-14-10 DNA signature."  Robert has a Ysearch ID for 17-14-10 as S9R4J, originally named "Wales Modal I".  The signature markers are 448=17, 456=14 and 450=10.

The R-M222 modal is at M5UKQ. According to the R-M222 project web site the key markers are 390 = 25, 385b = 13, 392 = 14, 448 = 18, 449 = 30, 464 = 15-16-16-17, 456 = 17, 607 = 16, 413 = 21-23, 534 = 16, 481 = 25 and 714 = 24.

I'm trying to see the similarity between the groups of haplotypes but haven't really figured out what Hughes is seeing.  Does any see some common markers between R-M222 and any subset of 17-14-10 folks?

If there are extant R-L21* that are somewhat closely related to R-M222, and if those haplotypes are geographically grouped, perhaps that indicates an origin or early expansion of R-M222.   Would it?

If it's any comfort to you, I am not seeing what Hughes is seeing either.

[vineviz]

It's been noted on several forums by people like VV that the R-M222 cluster of haplotypes seems to be set apart from most of the rest of the R-M269 haplotypes in Europe.  The rest seem to center around the Western Atlantic Modal.

The only STR that really sets M222 apart is DYS481.  Take that away and M222 just fades into the R1b1b2 blob.

VV

[Mikewww]

It's been noted on several forums by people like VV that the R-M222 cluster of haplotypes seems to be set apart from most of the rest of the R-M269 haplotypes in Europe.  The rest seem to center around the Western Atlantic Modal.

The only STR that really sets M222 apart is DYS481.  Take that away and M222 just fades into the R1b1b2 blob.
VV

Given VV's finding, I queried all of the non-duplicate R-L21* haplotypes in the FTDNA projects and Ysearch that I could find. Of the 329 with 67 markers, I found 25 or 8% of the R-L21* have DYS481=25, plus or minus 1. 12 of the 25 also have 413a=21 and 9 of these 12 were also above WAMH at 449 (so DYS449=30,31.)  These other two markers follow the similar pattern as the R-M222 modal.   Here are the 25:

ys2RNBW Ashley - England
ysNUKXT Blanshard - North Carolina, USA
ft141655 Bretheim - Seattle, Washington, USA
ft137235 Robert Caldwell, b.1750, York County, PA
ysBRSW3 Dickens - Unknown
ft11435 John Elliott, b. 1878, Donegal, Ireland
ft36039 John Gough, 1805, Gilford, County Down, Ireland
ft96185 Michael Hannan, b.c. 1847, Dublin, Ireland
ft132486 Stephen Harding b 1623 MA d 1698 RI
ft74975 Griffith Humphrey, b.1792, Llangwnnadl, Caernarvon
ft97610 Mogue Kehoe b. 1799 Co. Wexford, Ireland
ft100219 Martin Kelly b 1862
ft44048 Richard Lewis, b.1592 Monmouthshire, Wales
ft16114 John McLea, b. 1790, Isle of Bute, Scotland
ft12704 Hugh McKean, Dunluce, County Antrim
ft33333 Thomas Meek 1708-1776 near Cearfoss,Hagerstown, MD
ysV6MVZ Miller - Coupar Angus, Angus, Scotland
ysKKYYY Mitchell - Indiana, USA
ft133418 Nevins - Galway City, Ireland
ftN29988 Anders Nielsen, Vejle Amt, Denmark
ft74772 Thomas Phillips, Beverly, Randolph Co., West Va.
ysU7VY3 Pruner - Unknown
ft19920 Ephraim Stephens, bc1710 Scotland (ancient Welsh?)
ft132540 John Traynor, c.1798, Ireland, Co Cavan
ft8016 Warner - Unknown