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NealtheRed
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« Reply #50 on: August 26, 2009, 04:14:16 PM »

Like I said, there is no reason to believe that R-M269 came up throught the Middle East. If this is the case, then we would find its subclades there; whereas, we do find its subclades in Central Asia.

It seems that R1b1* splits into two groups, one moving westward across the Caucasus, and another experiences a back migration south into Africa which did not further mutate into M269: founder effect.

Neal
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #51 on: August 26, 2009, 04:21:47 PM »

And you're correct that mutations upstream of P312 are rarely found in Spain. There's a reason for this. As one moves east, the haplotype variation increases, and that's why the original Cantabrian theory was debunked.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #52 on: August 26, 2009, 06:28:02 PM »

Not all subclades: R1b1* is more plentiful in Spain than in Italy, where we have the only Malugani on the border between Italy and Switzeland. I found another in a paper in the Marche, but I haven't ever  found it on SMGF or YHRD. In the past I hypothesized that many R1b1* in Spain could be of Roman descent, like Arellano linked to the Basque Royal family of probable Roman origin, but we should find it in Italy for being sure of this.
We should deepen the matter. It could be possible that we don't find it in the place of origin but in places of migration, not accidentally the peripheral region like Spain and the British Isles, with a presence along the way, Germany above all.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2009, 06:29:48 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #53 on: August 28, 2009, 01:49:49 AM »

I wrote above that the Italians in the Argiedude’s spreadsheet on R-L23- were more than those counted by him, not counting all those who should be added.
Two have an Italian surname (Viola 5GK22 and Caiazza 3BTDE) and are genetically Italians.
Also Ventura has an Italian surname, but, as this surname is taken also from Jews of Italian descent, I wrote to Jane Ventura to have some information on her family. Anyway his haplotype is totally different from the other Jews who are probably of Spanish origin (Sephardim): DYS390=22, DYS19=13, DYS392=14 like many Sephardim but also like a few Italians, DYS458=16, rare among Sephardim who have the modal =17, and also DYS464=15,16,17,18. If he was a Jew, we can think to an Italian Jew very different from Sephardim.
The Swiss Tarnuzzer (UY5NN), very close to Thiel (8334H), is from the Grisons/Graubuenden, and must be considered a Rhaetian in every respect. Even more Thil has the rare DYSYCAIIa/b= 17-23, like the 4 Italians (Donato, Merante, Prowting, Ferrero).
Some South Americans I added to Ysearch (2DMW6: Riquelme Contreras from Chile, and 9DMF5: Riquelme Gaete from Chile, closely related) shouldn’t probably made us think to a presence of R-L23- in Spain, but to an origin from Jews converted, who had taken their DNA somewhere during the Roman Empire.
P.S. I have had the answer that also Ventura must be considered genetically Italian:
“Mr. Tognoni,
Mr. Ventura's name has been in Colombia for more than sixty years and prior to that in France, South Africa and Turkey. The connection is that a great grandfather from Maratea, Italy, came to Colombia and married. This side of the family is still in Colombia.
If I can answer any more questions, please let me know.
Thank you and happy hunting Jane C. Ventura”.

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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #54 on: August 28, 2009, 12:34:14 PM »

Itan Y, Powell A, Beaumont MA, Burger J, Thomas MG write in “ The Origins of
Lactase Persistence in Europe” (PLoS, August 2009):

“We infer that the coevolution of European LP and dairying
originated in a region between central Europe and the northern
Balkans around 6,256 to 8,683 years BP. We propose the following
scenario: after the arrival of the Neolithic in south-eastern Europe
and the increasing importance of cattle herding and dairying,
natural selection started to act on a few LP individuals of the early
Neolithic cultures of the northern Balkans. After the initial slow
increase of LP frequency in those populations and the onset of the
Central European LBK culture around 7,500 BP, LP frequencies
rose more rapidly in a gene-culture co-evolutionary process and on
the wave front of a demographic expansion, leading to the establishment of highly
developed cattle- (and partly also goat-) based dairying economies
during the Middle Neolithic of central Europe around 6,500 BP. A
latitudinal effect on selection for LP, through an increased
requirement for dietary vitamin D, is unnecessary to explain
the high frequencies found in northern Europe” (pages 7-8).

I propose, like  I have supported in the past, that those people was R1b1b2-L23+
coming from Italy, where this haplotype has the high frequency (30% of all R1b
in the Argiedude’s spreadsheet) and all the previous haplotypes. They were
hunter-gatherers converted to agriculture. This explains the high percentage of
R-L23+ in Central Europe (Czech Republic) but not elsewhere. Of course among  them there were some subclades: probably R-L51 and R-P312 and the others must be ascertained. It is difficult in fact to explain all the Italian R-U152 by a back migration from Central Europe with Celts. 
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #55 on: August 28, 2009, 03:47:17 PM »

Is this paper asserting that R-M269 came into Italy from the Northern Balkans? If so, that doesn't contradict U152 and L21 being proto-Celtic.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #56 on: August 28, 2009, 03:56:51 PM »

The paper doesn't speak of haplogroups and DNA. This is only an hypothesis of mine. But for what I have said above, if the ancestor of R-L23-, i.e. R1b1*, also for the recent research of Argiedude, is largely attested in Spain, I think that probably it came from there. I know that you are a follower of the theory of a short time for R1b1b2, but you know too that I have a different watch.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #57 on: August 28, 2009, 04:08:53 PM »

So you're pretty much basing your whole theory on one sample from Spain (Cantabrian refugium)? It sounds like you're wearing a faulty Timex.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #58 on: August 28, 2009, 04:11:05 PM »

I'm confused. Correct me if I'm wrong, but originally you were for the Italian refugium but now you're reverting to the Spanish one?
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #59 on: August 28, 2009, 04:30:13 PM »

If you read carefully what I have written above, I think having said clearly that my hypothesis of an Italian refugium refers to the Younger Dryas, and I thought that Hg. R1b was come to Italy from East through Russia, but the recent Argiedude's spreadsheet (beside some doubts I have had on other results in the recent past) I think has demonstrated that R1b1* is massively present above all in Spain (I have written that  all the R1b1s in East Europe are from Jews who take them from Spain). Then it isn't contradictory to think to a presence of it in the Cantabrian refugium, a migration to Italy during the Younger Dryas and a return to Spain from Central Europe as R-P312 above all. Spain in fact lacks all the subclades between R1b1 and R-P312, that Italy has and the only subclades clearly born in Spain are R-M153 and R-M167.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #60 on: August 28, 2009, 04:54:28 PM »

Ok, then fill me in on something. Is there any R1b1* east of Spain?
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #61 on: August 28, 2009, 11:01:45 PM »

Look at the Argiedude's spreadsheet. If you have access to "dna-forums" you can find a thread on there. We have only an Italian (Malugani: QG3AJ) and some in France, Germany, British Isles, but we can think derived from the Cantabrian refugium. If you keep the Spaniards, the Puertoricans and all the Jews (I think having demonstrated they are of Spanish origin in an inquire of years discussing also with the friend Sam Vass, who of course defends the origin from Middle East), you can see that the most part of the European R1b1* comes from Spain.
The others are the African ones, but very different from the European ones, also for having DYS385a=13.2. I have found this value in some Europeans from the British Isles (but also from Spain) who belongs to R-M269, then an indipendent mutation, who is practically a SNP.
European and African R1b1*s are the two branch of a migration from Asia happened probably 15,000 YBP. My theory is that the subclades we know were born from the European R1b1* and after we had a back migration to Asia and to Middle East.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #62 on: August 29, 2009, 08:40:48 AM »

R1b1* is found in Southwest Asia, and furthermore, you can't argue that as one moves east the age of R1b gets OLDER. This is accepted amongst all those number-crunchers out there.
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« Reply #63 on: August 29, 2009, 09:51:52 AM »

In the Argiedude’s spreadsheet we have only two groups of R1b1*: the European and the African ones. He started from the researches of Vizachero and developed them by searching in Ysearch, YHRD and SMGF (when I have time I put many haplotypes from SMGF to Ysearch). If there are other R1b1*s that someone shows them and I’ll consider them.
In the past many individuals spoke of Jordanian R1b1*s etc.: please, let me see them. This morning, nibbling at SMGF, I have found a group of possible R-L23+, but, putting some values, only 3 have remained valid. They were all related and, being two incomplete, I have extracted the one complete and I have put it on Ysearch. Then there were R-L23+ in Middle East, among Palestinians, Jordanians, Saudi-Arabs! Then R-L23+ Jews can come from there. But probably that haplotype is a R1b1a! and, besides, it finds close correspondences in Umbria and in Rhaetia (Italy).
See Ysearch: W7Y8T.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #64 on: August 29, 2009, 10:16:23 AM »

Like I said, there is R1b1* in the Near East.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #65 on: August 29, 2009, 11:06:32 AM »

If you make me know where I can give a glance to them I'll be very glad.
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Maliclavelli


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NealtheRed
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« Reply #66 on: August 29, 2009, 11:26:51 AM »

It's on DNA Forums, on the main ht35 thread, I believe. Vince V. discusses it to some length, at least he or someone else mentions the presence of R1b1* in the Near East.

I think it's present among the Lemba as well, and that can be due to migration further south of R1b1* that didn't manage to mutate into further subclades.


Neal
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #67 on: August 29, 2009, 12:32:10 PM »

Unfortunately I was banned from "dna-forums" and I haven't access. Anyway, as you are seeing, I fought my battles and I think with a good outcome. If someone is in difficulty in this moment am not I.
The problem of the Lemba: they claim a Jewish ancestry and, as there are some R1b (whichever they are) among them (an haplotype is close to me, then probably an R-L23+), they could demonstrate the presence of R1b1b2 among ancient Jews. But without a deep exam we aren't able to say anything and I asked why they weren't tested more deeply. For their history they can have taken those haplotype everywhere. Vizachero announced having found an R-L51+ in one Yemenite. These haplotypes can have reached there from everywhere.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #68 on: August 29, 2009, 12:59:46 PM »

I think it's obvious these samples of R1b1* migrated from the north, from Anatolia/Southern Caucasus.

Neal
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #69 on: August 29, 2009, 01:25:50 PM »

But we should find there some R1b1* and, for what I know, we haven't found it. I'll look for them on SMGF or YHRD, even though it isn't easy to find them without a deep exam or many markers. Argiedude probably didn't find them.
I remember there were two samples in Turkey in Cinnioglu, but we don't know if they are original or migrated from Europe. You know that I think that with mtDNA U5b3 migrated from Italy to Asia Minor, Mesopotamia, Iran some ancient haplotypes. What is important is to find the chain of the haplotypes, which Italy has. For this Vizachero are testing L150 on some Middle Easterners. If he doesn't find it, the victory is mine.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #70 on: August 29, 2009, 01:36:13 PM »

Well, it's an uphill battle for you, my friend, and until then I think you should hold off with the Patton quotes.


Neal
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #71 on: August 29, 2009, 02:57:01 PM »

Unfortunately that time I was on the other side of the street and as you can see not only Englishmen have two fighting souls.
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Maliclavelli


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vineviz
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« Reply #72 on: September 01, 2009, 09:17:57 AM »

The fact that U152 is so prevalent in Italy is due to Celtic movement there.
It is more likely that R-U152 was present among the people who were ancestral to both the Celts and to the Italics.

By the time there was anything like a definite "Celtic" culture, the time is too late for there to be any attested movements of such a people into Italy.

The existence of Italo-Celtic languages is debated, but I think it should be considered.  In any event, I think you need to reach further back into the first millenium B.C. to get the story of R-U152 in Italy.

VV
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vineviz
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« Reply #73 on: September 01, 2009, 09:29:32 AM »

Like I said, there is no reason to believe that R-M269 came up throught the Middle East. If this is the case, then we would find its subclades there; whereas, we do find its subclades in Central Asia.

You need to be careful about this line of reasoning.

One problem is that the only subclades we have discovered only the subclades which are most common in Europe.

For example, at some point about 4-5,000 years ago there lived a man (the MRCA of R-M269) with two sons who happened to leave descendants alive today.  One son's descendants included the branch containing L23 (which has more than 30 indentified terminal clades) while the other son's descendants include just two terminal branches.

In other words, there are plenty of subclades of R-M269 in the Near East:  we just haven't tagged them yet.

Further, the clades we HAVE identified (like R-P312 and R-U106) could have arisen in Europe - though that is not yet a given - even though the ancestors of those clades clearly arose in SW Asia.  The fact that M222 arose in Ireland doesn't change the fact that R-M269 came to Ireland from someplace else, for example.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #74 on: September 01, 2009, 10:42:50 AM »

Vizachero writes: “Further, the clades we HAVE identified (like R-P312 and R-U106) could have arisen in Europe - though that is not yet a given - even though the ancestors of those clades clearly arose in SW Asia”.

But if you said this there aren’t problems anymore. This is exactly what I (and others) did say and this means to say that all Europeans are European. That in other parts of the world there are other subclades of R-269 doesn’t matter: they are something other.
But also on this we must investigate further. I invite you to give a glance to my thread on R1b1*: it isn’t yet sure that also R1b1b and R1b1b2 aren’t born here in Europe, in Spain or even in the same Italy.
I am waiting for your results on L150 and take in consideration that there is a theory of mine that says that also some ancient clades of R1b1b2 can be migrated to Middle East from Italy with mtDNA U5b3 (and others) and this (the mtDNA for sure) is now demonstrated.
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