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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2009, 07:53:46 AM »

We have a new Pythagoras: Tim Janzen. Following illustrious mathematicians like Vizachero,  Nordtvedt and others, he has demonstrated, on “Genealogy-DNA”, that R/L23- (calculating on 37 markers, the most reliable being the others very slow mutating ones) is  5105 years old, that R /L23+ is 5160 years old and R/L51+ is 5410 years old. Then we to-day R-something are at least 10,000/15,000 years old, as my friend Gioiello Tognoni has always supported.
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« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2009, 11:51:53 AM »

Then we to-day R-something are at least 10,000/15,000 years old, as my friend Gioiello Tognoni has always supported.

That "R-something" was more than 10 ky old has never in doubt.  The question has always been how much younger is R1b1b2 and subclades.

In fact thanks largely to the work of Karafet, Arredi, Nordvedt, Vizachero, Janzen and others  we now have pretty good estimates for many major nodes in R:  the MRCA R1 lived about 18.5 kya, R1b1  about 16 ky, R1b1b about 12 kya, R1b1b1b2 about 6 kya, and so on.

I hope your friend Tognoni has been able to keep apprised of the latest developments during his time in the wilderness.  For a while he appeared to be a sheep following the wolf instead of the shepherd.

VV
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2009, 12:08:46 PM »

You, who put yourself  immodestly among  the great mathematicians, should explain to my friend how it is possible that a grandson is older than his father and his father older than his grandfather.
Re sheep and wolf, if you had a smattering of classics, should know the sheep and wolf fable.
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« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2009, 12:22:55 PM »

Anyway only a bigot/Pinzochero/Vizzaccaro follows his shepherd. My friend likes wolfs and every other animals than such men.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2009, 01:16:53 PM »

You, who put yourself  immodestly among  the great mathematicians, should explain to my friend how it is possible that a grandson is older than his father and his father older than his grandfather.
Of course it isn't possible, and the dates  I provided above are entirely self-consistent.

VV
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rms2
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« Reply #30 on: June 28, 2009, 03:11:13 PM »

You know, it doesn't really matter to me where R1b spent its part of the last Ice Age, but I thought Tim Janzen's post today on Rootsweb summed up the cutting edge thinking and evidence pretty well.

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2009-06/1246173597

The notion of an Iberian Ice Age refuge for R1b or R1b1b2 really attached itself to the affections of quite a few people, helped along, as it was, by the popularizers like Oppenheimer, Sykes, and Wells. We saw that in the vehemence with which it was defended - mostly by appeals to (dated) authority - about a year ago, and we see it in the emotions it continues to evoke even now.

The idea of an Italian R1b Ice Age refuge hasn't had the chance to gain the affections of many adherents yet, so we haven't seen the sorts of heated discussions that we've seen about Iberia.

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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #31 on: June 29, 2009, 10:43:39 AM »

Vizachero writes:
“Or a later incursion. If you entertain the notion that neutral
alleles are more likely to gain frequency when they surf into empty
geographies then when they enter populated geographies, you would
probably hypothesize that the more limited distribution of M269+ L51-
haplotypes in Europe is the result of a LATER arrival rather than an
earlier one (since Europe's population has be growing more-or-less
since the Mesolithic). M269+ L51- haplotypes appear today to remain much more common in the Near East than M269+ L51+ haplotypes, and M269+ L51- haplotypes in
Europe seem to be most common in the western Mediterranean areas:
precisely the areas that have had the most RECENT contact with the
Near East”.

If this is true, Vizachero should find among Jews and Middle Easterners a crowds of R/L23+L150-.

To him onus probandi!

Western Mediterranean areas? Say Italy, as everybody knows that Spain is very faulty.


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« Reply #32 on: July 19, 2009, 03:41:32 PM »


“Dear John,
I think that this section of the article has implications for our recent discussion about the spread of the R-L11 haplogroup throughout Europe:
"When Thomas modeled the spread of the gene [lactase gene] across a 9,000-year time span, he found that the simulation that best matched modern conditions suggested that the gene arose in central Europe 7,500 years ago, and that its spread paralleled that of the Linearbandkeramik culture, so named because of the characteristic linear bands they used to decorate their pottery. The Linearbandkeramik people were central and northern Europe’s first farmers, and the ability to digest milk, which probably arose in this culture as a random mutation, may have been an important factor in their subsequent diffusion throughout the continent."
Since the lactase gene is so common in Western Europe and since R-L11 is also very common in western Europe, it seems probable that this gene was also common in among the R-L11 people who spread throughout Europe. If so, this would link R-L11 with the Linearbandkeramik culture and its spread into Western Europe.
Sincerely, Tim Janzen”.
Then:
1)   7,500 years before present: not true the theory of Vizachero of an origin from Middle East.
2)   Probably true the theory of my friend Gioiello that R1b’s were the European hunter-gatherers who took agriculture from the J2 and G2 from Asia Minor.
3)   If R-L11 is 7,500 years old, R-L23 (- and +), R-L150- (the unique specimen in Italy so far), R-L150+, R-L51+ (massive in the Rhine Valley) are more ancient and it is possible the origin in the Italian refugium during the Younger Dryas.
4)   Italians are massively lactose resistant: this is explained on why they are above all R1b (specially in Central-North Italy, where didn’t arrive the colonization of the Anatolian farmers, being already above all R1b) but not reached from the mutation that happened in the “sons” migrated to North and also on why they aren’t R-L21 or R-U106.

Niccolò Maliclavelli Florentinus




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« Reply #33 on: July 20, 2009, 05:38:05 AM »

One of the proofs of an Italian refugium of R1b1b2-M269 is the presence in Italy of rare mutations not present elsewhere that demonstrate the ancientness in time and the thickness in quantity of this haplogroup in this country: Belgeri has the mutation M228.2 among R-U152, Tognoni the mutation S136 among R-L23+/L150+ (that isn’t the same of L50: ask EthnoAncestry for it), Romitti hasn't the mutation L150, the most important of all these, being the link between L23+ and L51+.
Now we have another mutation to add to all these. Two Americans, of Italian extraction, tested by SMGF (now on Ysearch: 264XB), have the mutation in DYS449=28.2 (a deletion of one TC: see Natalie M. Myres et alii, Y-chromosome Short Tandem Repeat Intermediate Variant Alleles DYS392.2, DYS449.2, and DYS385.2 Delineate New Phylogenetic Substructure in Human Y-chromosome Haplogroup Tree, in “Forensic Science”, 2009.50.239-249).
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« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2009, 06:07:09 AM »

This posting of my friend Gioiello on “Dienekes’ blogspot” answers some questions of this thread too. It is necessary to have read and understood these two fundamental papers: Pascale Gerbault et alii, Impact of Selection and Demography on the Diffusion of Lactase Persistence, “Plos ONE” 4(7): e639; and  Burger J. et alii, Absence of the lactase-persistence-associated allele in early Neolithic Europeans, in “PNAS”, 6 (2007).

“This paper is important for at least 2 results:
1)   The exclusion of the Linear Band Keramic population for the peopling of Europe, not being this hypothesis that that explains the diffusion of the Lactase persistence in Western Europe.
2)   The  cal (calcium assimilation) hypothesis is  better than the gcc (gene-culture coevolution).
If we exclude the Vizachero fallacy (that was the Renfrew one) of an origin of R1b1b2 (and of Indo-European languages) from Middle East and the openings of this paper on two other hypotheses (“An alternative hypothesis would be that a strong genetic structure for LCT*P was already present during the Mesolithic Era and lead to differential milk consumption in European populations” (p. 5) and  “as well as migration and possible admixture between hunter-gatherers and Neolithic farmers” (p. 6)), I can do my hypotheses.
The age of the mutation of the LP, that some scholars calculate between 7,450 and 12,300 YBP, must be dated at 12,300 years as only one man (or his woman) had first the mutation. In an epoch of low population’s expansion, 7,450 YBP is the date when this population took agriculture from the Middle Eastern J2’s and G2’s and began to expand. Of course this population were the R1b1b2 of the Italian refugium, who, from 12,300 years ago, as the mitochondrial U5b3, have had a low expansion to Middle East till Mesopotamia and Iran, but was who remained in Italy or nearby who peopled Europe.
Took this hypothesis and you will see that everything squares and mind, on the calculation, behind the latitude, also the rainfall.”
 

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« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2009, 12:22:13 AM »

I have spoken for (and from) long time of the Rhaetian-Etruskan Fatherland. Argiedude has had the merit to take our attention on the paper of Pichler et alii on the “Rhaetian” population I spoke about largely when it was published (Genetic Structure in Contemporary South Tyrolean Isolated populations Revealed by Analysis of Y-Chromosome, mtDNA, and Alu Polymorphisms, Human Biology, 2006, v. 78, no. 4, pp. 441-464). Also if  he has reported wrongly some data I corrected, I think that the other ones within the R1b haplogroup are very interesting. First of all we haven’t only the two guys (number 52) reported by Argiedude as R-L23-, but also no. 8 and 47. We have also  some R-L23+: 10, 16, 40, 45, and some R-L51+: 24, 27, 38. Then among  92 R1b we have 5 R-L23- ( 5,43%), 4 R-L23+ (4,34%) and 5 R-L51+ (5,43%). Then more than 15% under R-S116+. If we calculate the variance of these haplotypes it would take us well beyond the Younger Dryas.
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« Reply #36 on: August 24, 2009, 12:36:03 AM »

Maliclavelli wrote on www.worldfamilies.net: “In an epoch of low population’s expansion, 7,450 YBP is the date when this population took agriculture from the Middle Eastern J2’s and G2’s and began to expand. Of course this population were the R1b1b2 of the Italian refugium, who, from 12,300 years ago, as the mitochondrial U5b3, have had a low expansion to Middle East till Mesopotamia and Iran, but was who remained in Italy or nearby who peopled Europe”.
The recent demonstration that Middle East lacks haplogroup R-L23- is easily explaining if we look at the map of the expansion from the Italian refugium of the  mtDNA haplogroup U5b3: it lacks in Middle East too, then what could be understood as a following lost was probably an obstacle that prevented from the diffusion. We shouldn’t forget that Middle East was depopulated during the Younger Dryas.
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« Reply #37 on: August 25, 2009, 09:38:05 AM »

I am aware of the Celtic and Raetian connection since they lived next to each other in Switzerland and Austria. Now, where is this Italian refugium? Is it in the north, near the Alps?

I'm not sure about an Italian refugium (until I learn more, anyway) especially since P312 has been found as far east as Siberia. Coupled with its presence in the Caucasus, I don't think we should  a more eastern origin.

I'm not discrediting your theory; I just think that the British should not be solely credited with populating Eurasia (i.e. the Siberian P312).


Neal
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« Reply #38 on: August 25, 2009, 01:45:03 PM »

In another forum I corrected my posting:
“The oddity of the previous calculation of the haplotypes under R-S116+ in the Tyrolese (R-L23-=5, R-L23+=4 and R-L51+=5) made me reconsider the matter. In fact we have: R-L23- (no. 8, 47,52) = 5 (5,43% of R1b; 2,57% of the sample); R-L23+ (no. 3, 10, 16, 29, 37, 40, 45, 46)= 8 (8,69% of R1b; 4,12% of the sample); R-L51+ ( no. 18, 24, 27, 38, 44) = 9 (9,78% of R1b; 4,63% of the sample). The percentage of the haplotypes under R-S116+ is 23,9%.
Then in the calculation of Argiedude the Tyrolean R-L23- is 2,57% of the individuals tested, one of the higher percentage absolutely found”.
Then I was speaking about the haplotypes which precede R-S116/P312+. I think that on this we must debate. Noboby  denies that R (probably R1b1*) comes from Asia via Russia (there is an interesting
research of Argiedude on this: there is an European R1b1* and an African one, very different). I am discussing when this haplotype arrived. I think not so recently as someone is thinking (see Vizachero), but probably 15,000 YBP. Now that seems demonstrated that some subclades weren’t in Middle East, we must ascertain where was born R1b1b2-L23-, R1b1b2-L23+, R1b1b2-L23+/L150- (the only sample is so far the Italian Romitti), R1b1b2-L23+/L150+ (my friend Gioiello Tognoni etc.), R1b1b2-L51+ etc.
My posting on the Rhaetia tried to discuss this. If R1b1b2-P312+ was born in Asia, I think we should find there all the subclades, otherwise we can think to a back migration too.
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« Reply #39 on: August 25, 2009, 04:20:55 PM »

Well, I think that depends on when and where the L21 and U152 mutations emerged. We have a Kazakh U152 and a Siberian P312.

What we don't have is any Anatolian L21 or U152. L21's highest concentrations are in Northern Europe, including Finland. It easily could have travelled along a line starting in Southern Siberia, along the Finno-Russian border, down to the Swiss Alps, and of course upward again to Britain and Scandinavia.

This is all conjecture of course, but the lack of L21 and its brother clades in the Balkans and Anatolia is apparent.


Neal
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« Reply #40 on: August 25, 2009, 07:12:52 PM »

Neal Il Rosso, R-U152 and R-L21 are very recent as regards R-P312+. Italy is full of R-U152 and lacks totally of R-L21 (we have only a few cases: one is Argiedude, an Argentine of Italian descent, from North Italy). We have discussed a lot in the past, above all with David Faux, and the theory that the Italian R-U152 was “Celt” has been demonstrated not sustainable, being  R-U152 present in Italy everywhere, also in Sardinia, which is very conservative. Probably Italy is one the most important source of this haplotype/haplogroup, someone thinks linked with the Italic peoples, a branch of the Italo-Celtics, but it could be also older.
R-L21 probably arose first in the Rhine Valley and after expanded to North-West , and on this Richard Stevens is collecting many  proofs, and that it lacks in Italy I think demonstrates that there wasn’t a migration from Central Europe to Italy as the Celtic invasion theory presupposes.
Then if we find R-U152 in East Europe or farther East I would think to a back migration from West Europe.
But when I speak of the Italian refugium I do mean an older time, during the Younger Dryas and after, and I am referring to the haplotypes/haplogroups that precede R-P312+. I have hypothesized that the expansion happened with the diffusion of the agriculture from Anatolia/Balkans, but first for demic  diffusion (Hgs. J2 and others) and after by cultural diffusion  by the autochthonous hg. R. 
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« Reply #41 on: August 25, 2009, 10:11:12 PM »

The fact that U152 is so prevalent in Italy is due to Celtic movement there. Nevertheless, its base seems to be in Switzerland (L21 is found there too) where the proto-Celtic culture flourished. The lack of it in Anatolia and the Middle East is attributable to a different path taken into Europe.

Areas such as the Caucasus and Central Asia hold the key, I think, to P312's origins. True, R1* originated in Central Asia, but P312 could have been born in the same area. Look at the numbers surrounding U106 and P312: only hundreds of years separate their common ancestor!

The point at which P312 and U106 diverged is likely the area travelled into Western Europe.

ArrivederLa mi amico.
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« Reply #42 on: August 26, 2009, 01:50:34 AM »

Nealthe Red writes: “The fact that U152 is so prevalent in Italy is due to Celtic movement there”.

I convinced David Faux (who is David Faux) that probably this isn’t true by demonstrating that R-U152+ is in Italy not only prevalent among the R1b1b2 haplotypes but present overall in the country, also where we don’t know of a Celtic migration. You can read all my postings on “Genealogy-dna” and on “dna-forums” before my banishment (like you can see in my profile my address is gioiello.tognoni@gmail.com). Perhaps you know I don’t like who hides himself. I like always to know who is in front of me. “Neal the Red” should be an Irish or someone who passes himself off as someone. But it isn’t necessary to be Irish for writing that he “just thinks that the British should not be solely credited with populating Eurasia”.

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« Reply #43 on: August 26, 2009, 10:09:00 AM »

Well, first I'm not a proponent of Faux's theory that ONLY U152 is Celtic. But he does have a point in saying that U152 (and L21) as a derivative of P312 can be found at its height in the Celtic homelands of the Alps.

Furthermore, with P312's presence in Scandinavia and Russia (Siberia as well), it is reasonable to assert that it entered Europe from Russia or the area near the Caucasus.

And I don't know what your friend was saying about the Irish, but I think he misconstrued my quote about the British populating Europe. That was geared towards those that explained away every L21 that popped up as a result of historical British migrations. Reading some of your previous posts, I can see that you have an unruly tongue at times, and that's probably why your colleague was banned from DNAForums.
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« Reply #44 on: August 26, 2009, 11:02:35 AM »

I like the Irish. When I did my first test (DNAHeritage by the Scot Greenshields) I found that the Irish were the closest (genetically) to me, and I have always said on the forums that they came from Italy.
Also if they banned me, I survived and, sincerely, I never felt that my theories are triumphing like in this moment.
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« Reply #45 on: August 26, 2009, 11:56:06 AM »

I always thought I was English because of my surname, but being that my haplotype is a part of the Leinster cluster (and am CCGG at 464x), I am most likely a descendent of a Gaelic raider.

Look, I agree if you want to say the ancient Irish came from the Italian Alpine area. Now, if you're saying they came to Italy by way of Anatolia, you lost me there.
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« Reply #46 on: August 26, 2009, 12:57:20 PM »

When I said that? These are two postings I just wrote on another forum after having read a paper who tried to demonstrate this theory.
1)   I consider reassuring the authors’ words: “The authors have no support or funding to report” and certainly Romans were malicious when spoke of “excusatio non petita…”, but we have day by day a chain of paper carried always from the same wind. That wind we in Italy call “libeccio”, even though Libya in this case has no guilty. More than a “libeccio” it seems rather a “khamsin”, which makes the climate unbearable in these last weeks and ruinous flames on Greece. Then after having demolished a paper, really bad written and worse thought, cheer up: let’s read.
2)   What a fright it gave me! But no care. 1) The demic diffusion touched only the Balkans and Central Europe, but it is demonstrated that there isn’t continuity between Neolithic farmers and to-day population.  Then this study is purely academic and doesn’t concern us Europeans. 2) Anyway they started from Central  Anatolia, and that we knew. Hg. J2 etc. from somewhere  did come. 3) And then the reassuring conclusion: “Given that the biological matrices employed here were generated from relatively small samples (10–31 crania per OTU) there is an error inherent to the estimation of the biological relationships between OTUs. Therefore, we add the caveat that all significance values associated with Mantel and Dow-Cheverud tests reported here are minimum values” (page 7).
Then I can continue to cultivate my dream of an Italian refugium of R1b1b2!
 
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« Reply #47 on: August 26, 2009, 01:53:57 PM »

So, your saying that Haplogroup J arrived to Italy from Central Anatolia, whereas R-M269 emerged out of the Italian Alps?
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« Reply #48 on: August 26, 2009, 01:57:53 PM »

By the way, my maternal family comes from Naples. I belong to mtDNA HV. Mi famiglia e molto importante a me. E difficile a conosci? Va bene.

Excuse my Italian if is broken; I haven't taken it since I was an undergrad!
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« Reply #49 on: August 26, 2009, 03:46:45 PM »

I don’t know if you have followed the discussions of these last times. Recently it appeared  clear that R-L23- lacks in Middle East and probably has been falsified the Vizachero’s theory of an origin from Middle East, and the high percentage of this haplotype/haplogroup in Italy. On this I wrote some postings on Dienekes’ blog. Italy has all the haplogroups from R-L23- till R-L23+, passing from R-L150- and +. R-L51+ is documented above all in South Germany, but I have proofs of its presence also in Italy in the Alpine region. Then I think there was a migration to North and some haplogroups was born there, but R-U152 probably always in the Alpine region.
Now  the problem is R1b1*, the haplotype which precedes R1b1b and R1b1b1 and R1b1b2. The theory was that we were yet in Central Asia, but an interesting research of Argiedude on “dna-forums”, that certainly disliked Vizachero, has demonstrated the presence of R1b1* above all in Africa, and this is an autonomous cluster migrated there perhaps 15/10,000YBP, and a second group present in West Europe. The presence in East Europe is due exclusively to Jews, who took it in Spain (and I hope having demonstrated this, after many years,  to the friend Sam Vass). The massive presence in Spain obliges us to rethink to the Cantabrian refugium, where R1b1* could have been present. My old theory was that during the Younger Dryas the Cantabrian refugium was depopulated  and those men found refugium in Italy, in the Alpine region. Spain in fact seems to lack of the haplotypes which precedes R-P312+.
As you can see, there are many theories and some proofs, but we need others.
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