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Maliclavelli
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« on: June 17, 2009, 12:12:56 PM »

Steve, let’s see the facts. First, the hypothesis of an Italian Refugium during the Younger Dryas concerns eventually R1b1b2 in its first apparition, that is R-L23- if we won’t find any subclade before L23. In the “ht 35 project” of Vizachero R-L23- are either Jews or Italians. Soon we’ll understand where those Jews come from, if from Middle East or elsewhere. R-L23+ is found above all in Italy and in South Germany, but the new mutation (L150) divides Italians (Romitti against Tognoni and others, above all from South Germany). But only an Italian (Tognoni) has a new mutation (L50+), which someone can think private, anyway why in Italy if not because there there were many  R-L23+ to have on average a mutation. R-L51+ is above all in South Germany and there we have so far the only mutation (Schneider) R-L151+. I think that these are facts and they speak.
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« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2009, 03:52:10 PM »

Steve, let’s see the facts. First, the hypothesis of an Italian Refugium during the Younger Dryas concerns eventually R1b1b2 in its first apparition, that is R-L23- if we won’t find any subclade before L23. In the “ht 35 project” of Vizachero R-L23- are either Jews or Italians. Soon we’ll understand where those Jews come from, if from Middle East or elsewhere. R-L23+ is found above all in Italy and in South Germany, but the new mutation (L150) divides Italians (Romitti against Tognoni and others, above all from South Germany). But only an Italian (Tognoni) has a new mutation (L50+), which someone can think private, anyway why in Italy if not because there there were many  R-L23+ to have on average a mutation. R-L51+ is above all in South Germany and there we have so far the only mutation (Schneider) R-L151+. I think that these are facts and they speak.
My understanding is that the Younger Dryas cold spell occurred 10,800-9,500 BC.   How do you reconcile that timeframe for an Italian refugium for R1b1b2 (R-M269) if its current MRCA in Europe is from approximately 4000-3000 BC?
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« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2009, 09:19:14 PM »

Steve, let’s see the facts. First, the hypothesis of an Italian Refugium during the Younger Dryas concerns eventually R1b1b2 in its first apparition, that is R-L23- if we won’t find any subclade before L23. In the “ht 35 project” of Vizachero R-L23- are either Jews or Italians. Soon we’ll understand where those Jews come from, if from Middle East or elsewhere. R-L23+ is found above all in Italy and in South Germany, but the new mutation (L150) divides Italians (Romitti against Tognoni and others, above all from South Germany). But only an Italian (Tognoni) has a new mutation (L50+), which someone can think private, anyway why in Italy if not because there there were many  R-L23+ to have on average a mutation. R-L51+ is above all in South Germany and there we have so far the only mutation (Schneider) R-L151+. I think that these are facts and they speak.
[pauses to put on my heretic hat]
I think we need to be clear that the identity of the Jewish culture was not reliably documented until the 7th or 8th century BCE, so whatever existed before that could be the culmination of hundreds or thousands of years of mythology and folklore, or perhaps outright nationalistic contrivance - so I take most of the ancient biblical history with a grain of salt.  [Que flaming arrows...]

That said, the estimated date of R1b1b2 (4,000 BCE to 3,000 BCE) is well before the establishment of the Jewish nation and identity (somewhere between 1,500 BCE to 800 BCE).  Also, the migration path of R1b1b2 appears to run from somewhere in southwest Asia toward East/Central Europe, so there was ample opportunity for the pre-European sub-clades of R-M269 to mix it up in Anatolia and the Levant as it passed through.

As for where the Italian R-M269 folk came from, well your guess is as good as mine. ;)
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2009, 12:49:14 AM »


My understanding is that the Younger Dryas cold spell occurred 10,800-9,500 BC.   How do you reconcile that timeframe for an Italian refugium for R1b1b2 (R-M269) if its current MRCA in Europe is from approximately 4000-3000 BC?
[/quote]
Simply I don't think that R-M269 is only 6,000 years old. The ancientness of a haplogroup is a pure speculation. Mine are facts. Search another country in the world which can show the same facts. And also Vizachero, the worst opponent of this position, thinks for R-M269 to an older age (at least 8,000 years before present). I think to an age even older. That's all.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2009, 07:30:33 AM »

Vince Vizachero very recently (within the last week or two) commented on the Rootsweb DNA List that he believes R-M269 (R1b1b2) is about 6,000 years old and came out of SW Asia.

If that is right, and I think there is a growing consensus that it is, then in all probability no form of R1b spent the last Ice Age in Italy. Instead it probably entered SE Europe from Anatolia sometime during the Neolithic Period.

David Anthony, in his book, The Horse, the Wheel, and Language, mentions Csepel Beaker Folk just west of Budapest dated to 2800 BC. He thinks they should be credited with the beginnings of Italo-Celtic.
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« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2009, 10:06:54 AM »

Simply I don't think that R-M269 is only 6,000 years old. The ancientness of a haplogroup is a pure speculation. Mine are facts. Search another country in the world which can show the same facts. And also Vizachero, the worst opponent of this position, thinks for R-M269 to an older age (at least 8,000 years before present). I think to an age even older. That's all.
Vizachero is applying statistical techniques to data evidence (which is factual in nature) and mutation rate (molecular clock) evidence and models to derive the estimates that he has.  I don't think he has an axe to grind as to want to sway any assumptions any certain way.
Do you have any genetic evidence that that the MRCA ancestor of R-M269 in Europe is older than 8,000 ybp (or 6000 BC.)  ? 
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2009, 11:26:38 AM »

We have discussed so long about the mutation rate. Everybody agrees that what is worth within 1000 years isn't for 4000 or 8000.
I am saying that R-L23+ is son of R-L23-, that R-L150+ is son of R-L23+/L150- and so on. That we find this line in Italy and not elsewhere. If so, please tell me, or ask to Vizachero to tell you, as he wouldn't tell me.
I have explained many times which is the Vizachero's ideology and why it is worth on the forums.
I have explained that the recent paper on mtDNA U5b3, its origin from the Italian Refugium, explains very well the diffusion of R1b1b2-L23- and + in Europe and Middle East and because we find in Italy and South Germany the origin of all R1b1b2 subclades, but not elsewhere.
If so, please, tell me, or ask Mr Vizachero to tell you.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2009, 06:23:47 PM »

We have discussed so long about the mutation rate. Everybody agrees that what is worth within 1000 years isn't for 4000 or 8000.
I am saying that R-L23+ is son of R-L23-, that R-L150+ is son of R-L23+/L150- and so on. That we find this line in Italy and not elsewhere. If so, please tell me, or ask to Vizachero to tell you, as he wouldn't tell me.
I have explained many times which is the Vizachero's ideology and why it is worth on the forums.
I have explained that the recent paper on mtDNA U5b3, its origin from the Italian Refugium, explains very well the diffusion of R1b1b2-L23- and + in Europe and Middle East and because we find in Italy and South Germany the origin of all R1b1b2 subclades, but not elsewhere.
If so, please, tell me, or ask Mr Vizachero to tell you.
Do you have a link to the U5b3 paper?  Please keep in mind that mtDNA and Y DNA does not correlate like one might assume.  I do agree there was an Italian refugium during the LGM, and may have been an Iberian and Balkans and S. Ukranian/Russian refugium as well.

I agree it is possible R1b1b2 might have moved into Central, Western and Northern Europe from the southeast, possibly from Italy or the Balkans and  perhaps starting with Anatolia.   However, the genetic evidence indicates (there is no proof of any of this of course since no truly ancient Y DNA has been identified) that R1b1b2 (R-M269), or at least the R1b1b2 that was the founder of the European lines was too young to be around during the Younger Dryas.   That's why I ask if you have any genetic evidence that the current MCRA aging methodology is bad.   

Karafet & Hammer seem to agree with the newer methodology and I don't hear any current academia arguments against them.  It seems undisputed (by current researchers) to deduce that R-M269's MRCA is 6000-2000 BC.

The evidence from the ht35 project of the geographic distribution of the P312- U106- subclades related to the paragroups R-L51*, R-L23*, R-M269* back in time is evidence of direction from the southeast, not of absolute aging.

Has does anyone have any R-M269 subclade data on on Hungary or Romania?  It'd be very interesting to see what would turn up there.  If some R-M269* and R-L23*  folks show up there, the implication could be that a group of early R-M269 types split along the Danube River, some going south and west into Italy, some going west and north into the potential Celtic homelands. 

I just googled this up, but you probably won't like it when you see the author.
http://italydna.blogspot.com/2007/01/r1b-in-italy.html
Read and look at the DYS393=12 chart. The DYS393=12 allele for R-M269 folks seems to be radiate almost out of the Black Sea.   This distribution fits with the David Anthony "The Wheel The Horse..." book concept of an Italo-Celtic people coming from the Pontic (Black Sea) Steppes around the Black Sea and up the Danube, splitting west and north as Celts and south and west as Italics.    I don't know, but it is another alternative to consider. There is archeological and linguistic evidence that matches with the timing of R-M269's MCRA for this alternative.

FYI for those who want to look up the relationships of L23+, L51+, P311+, P312+, etc.
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR09.html
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx?section=yresults

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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2009, 03:49:08 AM »

Mike, you can find the link of the paper on "Dienekes' blog" under the topic "mtDNA haplogroup U5b3 (Pala et al. 2009)" of June 04, 2009, with comments of Gioiello and Maju. Gioiello and I have practically the same mind.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2009, 06:53:41 AM »

I think that the conclusion about the R1a1 debate is very interesting (see the most recent paper on this topic):
"Further, observation of R1a1* in different tribal population groups,existence of Y-haplogroup R1a* in ancestors and extended phylogenetic analyses of the pooled dataset of 530 Indians, 224 Pakistanis and 276 Central Asians and Eurasians bearing the R1a1* haplogroup supported the autochthonous origin of R1a1 lineage in India and a tribal link to Indian Brahmins," wrote S. Sharma and colleagues, Jawaharlal Nehru University.
The researchers concluded: "However, it is important to discover novel Y-chromosomal binary marker(s) for a higher resolution of R1a1* and confirm the
present conclusions"."

Re R1b1b2 we have these SNPs.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2009, 07:34:28 AM »

I just don't see R-M269 or R-L23 in an Italian Ice Age (or Younger Dryas) Refuge or any other Western European Ice Age (or Younger Dryas) Refuge. They are just not old enough. Vizachero, Nordtvedt and others all get pretty much the same age estimates using observed, father-to-son mutation rates, and those mutation rates make the most sense to me.

The R1b SNP trail seems to track from the southeast to the northwest, as Mike mentioned above and as has been mentioned numerous times on Rootsweb and other venues. I think I will take a closer look at that this weekend, if I get the chance (I may not; a couple of my grandchildren are being baptized this Sunday), and post something about it here.

Italy may have been an Ice Age Refuge for some form of I2, but R1b was just not there yet.

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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2009, 12:30:21 PM »

To demonstrate your assumptions, you Vincent Ken and all the others must only find some country with individuals who have R-L23-,L23+,L150-,L150+, L51-, L51+, and so on. I have already found this country: Italy.

Read, please, the paper of S. Sharma et alii on R1a1. Indians are very intelligent and they know that STRs and mutation rate are very open to question and think that only a SNPs' array is worth.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2009, 12:59:46 PM »

Stevo, see the posting of Roche on "Genealogy-dna": all subclades of R-M269 are R-L151+, and the first among the Adriano's spreadsheet R-M269 is Schneider, who, being from Germany, testifies where those subclades arose.
It seems to me that Vizachero is a cornered boxer.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2009, 02:55:39 PM »

To demonstrate your assumptions, you Vincent Ken and all the others must only find some country with individuals who have R-L23-,L23+,L150-,L150+, L51-, L51+, and so on. I have already found this country: Italy.

Read, please, the paper of S. Sharma et alii on R1a1. Indians are very intelligent and they know that STRs and mutation rate are very open to question and think that only a SNPs' array is worth.

You don't need all that in one country; you need a trail progressively moving through those SNPs. And that is found from Anatolia moving northwest into and through Europe.

You know better than most how cosmopolitan Italy was as the center of the Roman Empire. Is its haplogroup diversity a big surprise?
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2009, 03:27:55 PM »

What you are saying is a possibility I have always had present. But I'd desire you don't forget mine as a possibility too, that what we found in Turkey and Middle East has come from Italy, like it is certain for mtDNA U5b3. In the past my fraternal friend Gioiello said that also mtDNA N1b and K1a1b1, so diffused in Jews, presuppose an origin from the Italian Refugium at the time of the Younger Dryas.
That what we are finding in Italy is due to its multiracial past could be an "escamotage", the French say.
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« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2009, 10:58:40 AM »

Stevo, see the posting of Roche on "Genealogy-dna": all subclades of R-M269 are R-L151+ . . .

L151 is downstream of L51.  R-M269*, R-L23*, and R-L51* are all L151-.  Only the subclades of R-M269 which are L11+ are (so far) L151+.  So far, L151 adds nothing to the R1b1b2 phylogenetic tree.

L150 is the new SNP that provides the most potential, with only Romitti so far ancestral for it.  But with only a handful of folks having tested it, it is premature to attach  much meaning to it yet.

VV
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« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2009, 12:29:43 PM »

Vincent, I thank you for your response. To be prudent (from Latin prae-videns "to see before": English "foresee", a calque from Latin) was a Roman virtue. Perhaps you did better to be in the past too. At the end of the history probably you'll have to ascertain that I was right.

Gioiello Tognoni del Badia, R1b1b2/L50+. K1a1b1.
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« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2009, 01:30:03 PM »

.... At the end of the history probably you'll have to ascertain that I was right.

Gioiello Tognoni del Badia, R1b1b2/L50+. K1a1b1.
No, Machiavelli suggested that to be feared was more important than to be loved.

Anyway, since Jews were also sailors before there was a Rome and my precursor haplogroup has been omitted from this refugium, may I suggest that sometimes humans return to the fount to regenerate.  In my opinion, R1b returned to Africa where R1b-M269 was born and then spread well after the Ice Age to Anatolia and Italy.
sam (R1b-P25*)
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2009, 03:28:25 PM »

Machiavelli wrote: "Perché uno uomo che voglia fare in tutte le parte professione di buono conviene ruini infra tanti che non sono buoni". This Romans knew very well, not always Italians.
Anyway Publius Vergilius Maro wrote that Aeneas, going to Italy, was returning to his ancient fatherland.
If you mean that we all come from Africa you are right. The problem is that from then we all have had infinite mutations and we are our mutations and not our farthest origin.
You, Sam, know very well that this is the truth.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2009, 03:49:54 PM »

In my opinion, R1b returned to Africa where R1b-M269 was born and then spread well after the Ice Age to Anatolia and Italy.
Sam,

I know you are suggesting only your opinion, but I don't seen any support for this particular theory.  The R1b1* we see in Africa is very distantly related to R-M269:  the MRCA is about 16,000 years ago.  The African R1b1* is much more closely related to your own clade:  perfectly consistent with a recent (<10 kya) back migration from the Near East into Africa.  R-P297 had split from the rest of R1b1 long before that.

VV
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« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2009, 11:22:58 AM »

In my opinion, R1b returned to Africa where R1b-M269 was born and then spread well after the Ice Age to Anatolia and Italy.
Sam,

I know you are suggesting only your opinion, but I don't seen any support for this particular theory.  The R1b1* we see in Africa is very distantly related to R-M269:  the MRCA is about 16,000 years ago.  The African R1b1* is much more closely related to your own clade:  perfectly consistent with a recent (<10 kya) back migration from the Near East into Africa.  R-P297 had split from the rest of R1b1 long before that.  VV
.
I am extending a theory, possibly made in jest in response to my comment, by Gareth when he suggested that my ancestor who may have lived in Southern Egypt joined Moses on his trek across the dry seabed.  I suggest that P297 also migrated back with P25* to Africa and then a newly minted R1b-M269 also came with Moses.  My theory is just as valid as any other since we lack evidence to prove all present theories.
sam
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« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2009, 11:31:43 AM »

I am extending a theory, possibly made in jest in response to my comment, by Gareth when he suggested that my ancestor who may have lived in Southern Egypt joined Moses on his trek across the dry seabed.

But we aren't talking about your R-P25 ancestor.  We are talking about the ancesor of R-M269.  R-M269 is NOT descended from the R-P25 we see in Africa today:  they are brother clades of R-P25, in effect.  And of all the observable clades of R-P25 (maybe there are 7 to 10, depending on how you want to count), only maybe two closely related ones are found in Africa.  The remainder are quite distinctly Eurasian.

I suggest that P297 also migrated back with P25* to Africa and then a newly minted R1b-M269 also came with Moses.  My theory is just as valid as any other since we lack evidence to prove all present theories.

One thing we DO have is evidence of pre-colonial R-P25 in sub-Saharan Africa.  We have NO evidence of pre-colonial R-M269 in sub-Saharan Africa, and that fact makes an African origin for R-M269 much less likely than a Eurasian origin.

VV
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« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2009, 02:29:46 PM »

I am extending a theory, possibly made in jest in response to my comment, by Gareth when he suggested that my ancestor who may have lived in Southern Egypt joined Moses on his trek across the dry seabed.

But we aren't talking about your R-P25 ancestor.  We are talking about the ancesor of R-M269.  R-M269 is NOT descended from the R-P25 we see in Africa today:  they are brother clades of R-P25, in effect.  And of all the observable clades of R-P25 (maybe there are 7 to 10, depending on how you want to count), only maybe two closely related ones are found in Africa.  The remainder are quite distinctly Eurasian.

I suggest that P297 also migrated back with P25* to Africa and then a newly minted R1b-M269 also came with Moses.  My theory is just as valid as any other since we lack evidence to prove all present theories.
One thing we DO have is evidence of pre-colonial R-P25 in sub-Saharan Africa.  We have NO evidence of pre-colonial R-M269 in sub-Saharan Africa, and that fact makes an African origin for R-M269 much less likely than a Eurasian origin.  VV
I believe that you are the one who identified early R-M269 among the Lemba which could be considered sub-Saharan.  Also, many subclades may die out in their location of origin while their outlying colonies may flourish.   I note that we have no evidence of pre-colonial R-P25 in either Europe or Asia other than in the Levant and yet that is believed. 
sam
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« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2009, 04:09:38 PM »

I believe that you are the one who identified early R-M269 among the Lemba which could be considered sub-Saharan. 

It is true that the Lemba do appear to have some a small amount of R-M269, and that it is quite possiblly pre-colonial given the Lemba's oral tradition of Jewish ancestry.  That is, however, an example of movement FROM the Near East to Africa (just as we suspect ultimately for the remainder of R1b1* in sub-Saharan Africa).

Also, many subclades may die out in their location of origin while their outlying colonies may flourish.

True, but we also have the next nearest clades (e.g. R-M73) appearing only in Eurasia and the clades upstream as well are only in Eurasia.

VV
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« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2009, 05:15:17 PM »

The case of the Lemba could be very interesting to understand if Ancient Jews had some R1b1b2 before their dispersion among Europeans, but the paper was written  on 2000, using only 6 markers and a few rough SNPs. To-day the CMH has lost the great part of its reliability and we should ask why a more recent research on the Lemba, with all the markers and the SNPs we have now,  hasn’t been done, even though such labs have available funds. Certainly the lack of European or Middle Eastern mtDNA among them makes some doubt arise.
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