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Author Topic: The origin of R-U106 from the Italian R-L23+  (Read 5573 times)
Maliclavelli
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« on: June 07, 2009, 12:54:12 AM »

23andME has given new data to its customers. Re YDNA Adriano Squecco is updating his spreadsheet.
Watching the new data of Gioiello Tognoni (R-L23+), it is clear that he in the autosomal of the YDNA matches completely Blakley (R-U106) and not his linked R-L23- and +. This does mean that R-U106 was born from his Italian R-L23+ and not from the others. As Gioiello Tognoni has always supported to be of ancient Rhaetian-Etruscan ancestry, probably the source of R-U106 must be searched in this ancient Rhaetian-Etruscan Refugium.
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Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2009, 01:19:14 AM »

The same is for Roche (R-U106). We must think, more than to autosomal, to haploblocks, seeing as they are tested: at blocks, demonstrating a particular disposition of theirs in the YDNA array.
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Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2009, 01:24:10 AM »

Then more than re the origin, this tell us something on the long period between the SNPs' mutation and to-day.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2009, 03:29:28 AM »

Have the same haploblock Reynolds (R-S116+), Belgeri, Monnier, Squecco (R-U152+), and partially Wright (R-S116+) and Heath (R1a).
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Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2009, 03:23:59 PM »

After the last Adriano's update, we must add: Winters, Moscia (S116), Tilroe, Wade (U106), Kerchner (U152).
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Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2009, 03:46:19 PM »

Wanderful! We must add the Italian Mainenti (R1b1b1) and the Jew Weider Weil (Sam Vass) (R1b1), who have inverted only 498 TT/CC, 682 CC/TT, 1212 CC/TT, 1398 CC/TT, 1992 GG/AA. Probably this is very important also for understanding the origin of R1b1b2. Perhaps the line R1b1 to R1b1b (1 and 2) is direct.
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Maliclavelli


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rms2
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« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2009, 04:04:34 PM »

I don't understand. ALL R1b1b2a-whatever are L23+ and thus descend from the original L23+ y-dna ancestor. But L51 and P310 (et al) lie between L23 and U106 (and between L23 and P312).

Please explain.

I also don't see how autosomal dna can establish that U106 came out of Italy. Y-dna is one thing and autosomal dna another. For one thing, y-dna is non-recombinant, and autosomal dna recombines.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2009, 04:05:32 PM by rms2 » Logged

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2009, 04:30:52 PM »

I started with an idea (the origin of U106), but, if you have read all my posts, you can see that my idea changed, not the origin of U106 from R1b1b2/L23+, but the presence, I think, of haploblocks in the autosomal as we are searching in other autosomal chromosomes. But I think that also these are exstremely interesting, given the regularity of the correspondences. The last observation I think very interesting: the link of Vaider Weil (Sam Vass), who is R1b1, and Mainenti, who is R1b1b1 with Tognoni and all the others linked with him. They probably have the same haploblock, with a few mutations (those that we know) and a few others. This is in contrast with the reconstruction of Vizachero, who has separated all R1b1s from the line which brings to R-P297. If this is true either all this line come from Middle East or the R1b1 of Vaider Weil is from the Spanish or Italian Refugium.
A long discussion between my friend Gioiello Tognoni and Sam Vass from many years.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2009, 04:54:03 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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rms2
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« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2009, 04:53:01 PM »

I think Vince's y-dna SNP trail is more reliable for tracking a y-dna haplogroup than autosomal haploblocks could ever be.

How does one untangle the portion contributed by the distaff part from that contributed by the male part, and who is to say which female and which male contibuted what autosomal trait and to what mtDNA or y-dna haplogroups they belonged?

I have several y-haplogroup I1 lines in my own family tree. What autosomes did they contribute versus the ones contributed by the R1bs in my genetic make-up?

No one can tell.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2009, 04:53:41 PM by rms2 » Logged

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2009, 05:00:12 PM »

I think that these haploblocks are passed on thousands of years and probably by the same male line, without a female contribution, otherwise it wouldn't be explained their regularity, then they are true SNPs in given regions of YDNA.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2009, 05:04:42 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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rms2
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« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2009, 05:11:12 PM »

I think that these haploblocks are passed on thousands of years and probably by the same male line, without a female contribution, otherwise it wouldn't be explained their regularity, then they are true SNPs in given regions of YDNA.

Then I am misunderstanding things a great deal.

Autosomal dna carried on the y chromosome? I did not know such a thing existed.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2009, 05:11:29 PM by rms2 » Logged

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2009, 05:20:17 PM »

Some haploblocks are autosomal, then they had a female contribution, but other haploblocks aren't autosomal: it is strange that the haploblock of Tognoni and the others linked to him isn't autosomal. Then there is probably some structure in the YDNA which permits this, and, one time fixed, is stable for a long time. Don't ask to me what is the matter. As Catullus I can say:
        quare id faciam fortasse requiris.
  Nescio, sed fieri sentio et excrucior.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2009, 07:32:45 PM »

Also Francesco Cesaroni (R-U106) has the same haploblock of Gioiello Tognoni. They have had the exam by Doug McDonald and were pretty the same in his calculator, that is from Central Italy.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2009, 11:01:50 AM »

We must add Ham (R-S116), who interestingly matches at a GD of 2 over 25 the "ht35_Modal_A2 Slow STR". Very very interesting.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2009, 11:02:25 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2009, 10:48:44 PM »

We must add Paulie and Wahl (R-L23) and Kidd (R-S116).
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2009, 05:58:38 PM »

Maliclavelli:


"Watching the new data of Gioiello Tognoni"


I'm curious to know if this is you. On a thread at Dienekes' blog Gioiello stated he was about to go back to work.


I take that to mean you are no longer associated with the Genetics Society of America?   



Gioiello Tognoni

Professor at Genetics Society of America

Florence Area, Italy
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2009, 02:04:26 AM »

Of course this isn't true. I had to register me on the site as I desired to watch some data and I gave those data they required. I hadn't other way to access the site. I am a teacher in the High School of Italian, Latin, History and Geography. But I think that this doesn't mean that my theory on genetics are trash.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2009, 09:02:54 AM »

....


Gioiello Tognoni

Professor at Genetics Society of America

Florence Area, Italy

My in-laws just got back from a tour of Tuscany.  They stayed several nights in a  castle near Florence - Montegufoni.  I thought it might be Norman since it was originally built in the 12th century.  It looks like the original family were actually Guelphs from Bavaria.
http://www.sceptretours.com/montegufoni-info/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guelphs_and_Ghibellines
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2009, 01:19:14 PM »

Mike, probably Normans had nothing to do with Tuscany, but Lombards yes. I too supposed to have a Lombard origin, having my most ancient ancestors frequently the name "Bernardo" and my haplogroup isn't only in Italy but also in the Rhine Valley at a pretty the same frequence. Now I think to be among the most ancient inhabitants of Italy, but probably many Lombard or German haplogroups can be present in Italy and in Tuscany. In the autosomal we Tuscans are characteristic, one of seven fundamental people of Europe, then very ancient.
This my thread was begun when I interpreted as haploblocks the differentiation between V2 and V3 in the 23andME results. Then now has no meaning, even though the problem of the haploblocks remains and nobody has explained why V2 was different from V3.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2009, 01:52:22 PM »

Mike, probably Normans had nothing to do with Tuscany, but Lombards yes. I too supposed to have a Lombard origin, having my most ancient ancestors frequently the name "Bernardo" and my haplogroup isn't only in Italy but also in the Rhine Valley at a pretty the same frequence. Now I think to be among the most ancient inhabitants of Italy, but probably many Lombard or German haplogroups can be present in Italy and in Tuscany. In the autosomal we Tuscans are characteristic, one of seven fundamental people of Europe, then very ancient.
This my thread was begun when I interpreted as haploblocks the differentiation between V2 and V3 in the 23andME results. Then now has no meaning, even though the problem of the haploblocks remains and nobody has explained why V2 was different from V3.
What sub-clades do you think are prevalent in Lombard descendants?
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2009, 02:12:09 PM »

I don't know, because they were probably a mix of peoples, as it was yet seen  by their skulls.
Italian "Degli Uberti" ( I found another "Ubertis" on SMGF and put in Ysearch) is R1a1. Then I think above all the German haplogroup: R-U106, R1a1, I, but probably many others in a less percentage.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2009, 03:34:59 PM »

“But I think that this doesn't mean that my theory on genetics are trash.”

From another thread:

Re: Iberian R-L21*

 October 28, 2009,

“My hypotheses aren't based on a sacred book but on thousands of data (historical, linguistic, genetic, on a life of studies in all the fields). Sometime perhaps I am wrong, but someone must yet demonstrate this.”

You make more sense than supposed science I have seen from a member of the National Academy of Sciences who has written about one topic I know he doesn’t know what he is talking about putting everyone with that disorder into an Ashkenazi Jewish category.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2009, 03:48:31 PM by Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen » Logged
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