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Author Topic: Iberian R1b1b2 - what do the subclade patterns tell us?  (Read 3892 times)
pcusack1
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« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2009, 08:00:56 PM »

You might find this sight interesting Re Spainish R-L21's.  

http://www.davidkfaux.org/LaTene_Celt_R1b1c10_part2.pdf

According to the book "Ancient Celts", there was a migration pattern from the Pyrennes  and Eastern Spain to Brittinay, to Western England to Southern Ireland.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2009, 08:29:09 PM by pcusack1 » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2009, 04:20:27 AM »

The French testing has not picked up much L21 in SW France which although this may be down to very little sampling of that area (which has been unavoidable) ties in nearly with the Iberian relative lack of paper-trail-confirmed L21. That could hint at a possible S116* and subclades zone among the southern Gauls and Iberian Celts which contrasts with a high L21 zone in northern 'Celtic Gaul' (northern France and west Germany) and the isles.  However, the southern French sampling is so very small that we cant be sure.  I suppose all the S116* on that project map must by definition have been tested for L21 so where there is a lot of S116* and little L21m its significant.

I also find it interesting that in much of the higher S116* area of the old Celtic world like Iberia and perhaps southern France, there were dialects that are thought to belong to the Celto-Italic branch but that seem to have Italic features and are considered by some to not quite be Celtic.  By this I mean Ligurian in NW Italy and southern France and the Lusitanian type dialects which some think covered much of Atlantic Iberia from southern Portugal to the Cantabrians on Biscay.  

I think those who like the Atlantic facade idea of Celtic origins tend to overlook the fact that the actual Atlantic coasts dwellers of Iberia seem to have spoken this Italic-reminicent Lucitanian dialect rather than the interior q-Celtic of the CeltIberians whose inland location wouldnt have helped contact along the Atlantic Ocean at all.  I also wonder if there might ever emerge a distinction between the interior CeltIberians and these coastal 'Lusitanian speaking tribes in terms of clades.  

Before anyone mentions the basques or non-Celtic Iberians, I have to make clear now that I lean towards  the school of thought that the non-Indo-European Iberian languages were not the languages of the R1b settlers.  

« Last Edit: September 10, 2009, 05:02:07 AM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2009, 04:11:24 PM »

....
Before anyone mentions the basques or non-Celtic Iberians, I have to make clear now that I lean towards  the school of thought that the non-Indo-European Iberian languages are later introductions. 
....
Where do you think these non-IE languages of Iberia and SW Europe came from? and as a part of what cultures?
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2009, 09:24:04 PM »

I think the southern Iberian non-Celtic cultures are thought to have a number of influences and possible inputs from all along the Med. but I think the issue of exotic origins is still speculative.  I did hear though that even in the non-Celtic/non-Info-European  parts of Spain that Celtic/Indo-European river names predominate, suggesting that non-IE spoken languages were/are an overlay. 

Basically the way I look at it is is the original R1b language family IE as in the case of 99% of the R1b world when it first appeared in history or do you think that the original R1b language was Basque and that all the R1b world lost it except the Basques?  I would say that the latter is an example of a theory where 'the tail is wagging the dog' and that its best to see the Basques as the odd men out who do not speak the language of their y-DNA line.  In the latter scenario Basque could either be an older language that has survived despite an influx of R1b male lines or tthat he men havent moved but an older IE language has been overlaid by a non-IE one.  Non-IE does not have to mean pre-IE.   
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