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Author Topic: Iberian R1b1b2 - what do the subclade patterns tell us?  (Read 3860 times)
Mike Walsh
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« on: June 05, 2009, 03:30:40 PM »

We know there are a few R-L21* and a few R-U106 in Iberia, but what about the the R1b1b2 subclades and paragroups:  R-SYR2627, R-M153 and R-P312*?

Can we discern anything about their pattern of distribution?

Here is some background info:

RMS2's R-P312* Map
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msa=0&msid=102956803377716741902.000451315c3a8da9708e0

FTDNA Iberian DNA project
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/IberianDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults

Study: Reduced genetic structure of the Iberian peninsula revealed by Y-chromosome analysis by Flores, et al
http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/EJHG_2004_v12_p855.pdf

This study has a table that shows the following subclades are most common in the following regions, in order:

R-SRY2627 - Catalan, the Basques, Cantabria, Malaga, Cadiz, Castile, Huelva, Leon, N.Portugal, Seville

R-M153   the Basques, Castile, Malaga, Cadiz, Valencia, Cantabria

As the table shows, there is a ton of undefined R1b1b2 that is SRY2727- and M153- all over Iberia.   What do we think those are?  More L21*, U106 but mostly R-P312*?  What do you think?  If it is R-P312*, where did it all come from?

Pre-Roman Peoples and Languages of Iberia
http://arkeotavira.com/Mapas/Iberia/Populi.htm
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
rms2
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« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2009, 10:38:47 AM »

This is an interesting subject. I know that Robert Tarin has a huge database of Iberian haplotypes and other data. He is working right now on a new web site. It is not yet complete, but what I have seen of it holds outstanding promise. It should prove an extremely valuable resource.

I tend to think of P312 as generally, though not exclusively, Celtic, but I must admit the presence of P312+ subclades among what appear to be basically non-Celtic groups, like the Basques and Catalans, is a problem.

Were those groups predominantly something else to begin with and only became R1b1b2a1b-whatever via admixture? I wouldn't dismiss that possibility.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2009, 10:39:11 AM by rms2 » Logged

pcusack1
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« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2009, 02:30:50 PM »

I'm an L21 (CC39H) and have Spainish roots. At a GD of 0, 1, 2 I match most closely the Pyrennes, Lerida, and Gerona, and Northern Portugal.

 I didn't make the connection between the subclade and the Spainish becuase of the change in termenology (?) (R1b1b2a1b6 vs R1b1b2a1a2f) There is a new Iberian L21 website under construction:

http://iberianroots.com/index.html

I thik some of these Iberians ended up in Belgium.

Could there be a connection with the Sephardic Jews and L21? 
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rms2
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« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2009, 02:55:52 PM »

I'm an L21 (CC39H) and have Spainish roots. At a GD of 0, 1, 2 I match most closely the Pyrennes, Lerida, and Gerona, and Northern Portugal.

At how many markers?

Remember: R1b1b2 is R1b1b2 is R1b1b2. At too few markers, you are going to match all sorts of people, even those not even in the same subclade as you. For example, at 12 markers, I match men who are U106+. I even have a 27/28 "match" with an R-L48 guy.

You don't have "Spanish roots" (that you know about) unless you can trace your ancestry to Spain.

I didn't make the connection between the subclade and the Spainish becuase of the change in termenology (?) (R1b1b2a1b6 vs R1b1b2a1a2f) There is a new Iberian L21 website under construction:

http://iberianroots.com/index.html

I thik some of these Iberians ended up in Belgium.

Could there be a connection with the Sephardic Jews and L21?  

Quite a few men of Iberian origin have been tested for L21. By far and away most of them have been L21-. A very few are L21+.

Thus far Iberia, with its R-P312*, R-M153, R-SRY2627, R-U152, and R-U106, is basically L21- territory.

Here is the R-P312* Map:

http://tinyurl.com/nocf7c

It does not include all the other L21- subclades I mentioned above.

Now compare its picture of Iberia with the R-L21* European Continent Map:

http://tinyurl.com/nbux3q
« Last Edit: August 10, 2009, 02:58:25 PM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2009, 03:10:24 PM »

That's not to say there won't be more R-L21 in Iberia. I think there will, but it won't occur as frequently as some of the other P312+ subclades, in my opinion.

We have a man in the "L21 Pending" category on our Y-DNA Results page whose ancestor came from Malpica de Bergantiños, which took its name (the "Bergantiños" part) from the Brigantes Celtic tribe that inhabited the area. Malpica de Bergantiños is in Galicia.

I think he has a good shot at coming up L21+.
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Jdean
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« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2009, 03:37:32 PM »

My closest matches at 67 are all U106 ?
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pcusack1
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« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2009, 04:27:22 PM »

I'm an L21 (CC39H) and have Spainish roots. At a GD of 0, 1, 2 I match most closely the Pyrennes, Lerida, and Gerona, and Northern Portugal.

At how many markers?

Remember: R1b1b2 is R1b1b2 is R1b1b2. At too few markers, you are going to match all sorts of people, even those not even in the same subclade as you. For example, at 12 markers, I match men who are U106+. I even have a 27/28 "match" with an R-L48 guy.

You don't have "Spanish roots" (that you know about) unless you can trace your ancestry to Spain.

I didn't make the connection between the subclade and the Spainish becuase of the change in termenology (?) (R1b1b2a1b6 vs R1b1b2a1a2f) There is a new Iberian L21 website under construction:

http://iberianroots.com/index.html

I thik some of these Iberians ended up in Belgium.

Could there be a connection with the Sephardic Jews and L21?  

Quite a few men of Iberian origin have been tested for L21. By far and away most of them have been L21-. A very few are L21+.

Thus far Iberia, with its R-P312*, R-M153, R-SRY2627, R-U152, and R-U106, is basically L21- territory.

Here is the R-P312* Map:

http://tinyurl.com/nocf7c

It does not include all the other L21- subclades I mentioned above.

Now compare its picture of Iberia with the R-L21* European Continent Map:

http://tinyurl.com/nbux3q


Thnak you for your response.  Genebase runs its analysis starting at 6 markers. If I move any higher, all I'm told is that I'm a US Caucausian. Not very helpful!  I may have "roots" that come out of Southern France or perhaps Navarre. Cussac is  in Guienne.  Pyrennes is a strong match in the analyisis mentioed above. I'm yet sure what to make of it.  I am an L21/s145 which is an L21+, correct?

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pcusack1
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« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2009, 04:34:58 PM »

Here are some results:
 
(sorry for the bulk!)

Matches at a Genetic Distance of 0:
Population Set    # Matches    Population Size    Match %
Pyrenees, Spain, Jacetania    3    28    10.71%
Northern Portugal    18    212    8.49%
Valencia, Spanish (eastern coast of the Iberian Peninsula)    5    59    8.47%
Irish    13    155    8.39%
Cantabria, Northern Spain    7    104    6.73%
Pyrenees, Spain, Alt Urgell (Lerida)    2    34    5.88%
Caucasian, United Kingdom    14    250    5.60%



Matches at a Genetic Distance of 1:
Population Set    # Matches    Population Size    Match %
Pyrenees, Spain, Alt Urgell (Lerida)    13    34    38.24%
Pyrenees, Spain, Vall D' Aran (Lerida)    11    29    37.93%
Pyrenees, Spain, Cerdanya (Gerona)    14    41    34.15%
Irish    47    155    30.32%
Danish (Copenhagen)    17    62    27.42%
Maracaibo, Northwest Venezuela    30    111    27.03%
Caucasian, United Kingdom    65    250    26.00%
Valencia, Spanish (eastern coast of the Iberian Peninsula)    15    59    25.42%
US Caucasian    53    242    21.90%
Belgian    24    113    21.24%
Northern Portugal    37    175    21.14%



Matches at a Genetic Distance of 2:
Population Set    # Matches    Population Size    Match %
Pyrenees, Spain, Alt Urgell (Lerida)    10    34    29.41%
Pyrenees, Spain, Vall D' Aran (Lerida)    8    29    27.59%
Majorca (Spanish)    25    91    27.47%
Irish    40    155    25.81%
Northern Portugal    53    212    25.00%
Cantabria, Northern Spain    25    104    24.04%
Brescia (Northern Italy)    24    104    23.08%
Ibiza (Balearic Islands)    20    96    20.83%
Rio de Janeiro, Brazil    24    119    20.17%
Caucasian, United Kingdom    50    250    20.00%
Catalonia, Spain    48    247    19.43%
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pcusack1
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« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2009, 04:49:58 PM »

When I compare my markers with the following Iberian markers, every marker pops up a match. I've tested for 91 markers.

http://iberianroots.com/statistics/allele_frequencies_%20R1b1b2a1a2f.html

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rms2
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« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2009, 06:24:04 PM »

I think those may be six-marker matches and essentially useless.

There is nothing especially Iberian about L21, at least not so far.

You need to look at high resolution matches within your subclade and forget stuff on short haplotypes from a region that is overwhelmingly L21-.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2009, 06:24:52 PM by rms2 » Logged

pcusack1
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« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2009, 06:46:54 PM »

What about hte above link? They virtually all match.
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pcusack1
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« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2009, 10:15:46 PM »

Actually, I did the count on Iberian L21's and I have a GD of 23 on 57 markers.  TMCRA is over 4000 years.

But it is still better than the Irish Type III (Modal Y Search NT4BZ) provided by Dennis Wright.  I'm an a GD of 33 on 68 markers.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2009, 10:22:53 PM by pcusack1 » Logged
pcusack1
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« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2009, 10:57:28 PM »

I did a recount another way.This time I used the Allele markers that are not just modal, but are seen in Iberian R1b-L21's.  The count came out to a GD of 9 on 48 markers. Thats a TMRCA of about 70 generations or about 1960 years.  That puts us at 49 AD - near the Dispora in 70 AD.

http://iberianroots.com/statistics/allele_frequencies_%20R1b1b2a1a2f.html
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rms2
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« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2009, 07:32:59 AM »

I did a recount another way.This time I used the Allele markers that are not just modal, but are seen in Iberian R1b-L21's.  The count came out to a GD of 9 on 48 markers. Thats a TMRCA of about 70 generations or about 1960 years.  That puts us at 49 AD - near the Dispora in 70 AD.

http://iberianroots.com/statistics/allele_frequencies_%20R1b1b2a1a2f.html

The destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 A.D. has little direct bearing on L21 . . . except that some of the Roman soldiers may have been L21+.

I'm not really sure what you are doing, but the simplest approach is to look at your haplotype neighbors in YSearch. They are predominantly Irish, as I recall. Cusack is also listed as an Irish surname. Not only that, but L21 is so common in Ireland that early on we had folks arguing that it originated in Ireland. I don't agree with that, but it is a fact that L21 is extremely common in Ireland.

Iberia, on the other hand, is overwhelmingly L21-.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2009, 07:33:38 AM by rms2 » Logged

pcusack1
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« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2009, 10:10:09 AM »

Thank you for your response.

 I would point out that Cusack is supposed to be a Norman Irish name from Cussac Guienne France. There are no L21's from that area of France.

From my genealogical research, I believe that Cusack may be an adoptive name. I'll know more when the Canadian Anouism project is complete.

There are R1b Jews who mostly come from Spain.

I appreciate your input. Thank you.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2009, 01:14:20 PM by pcusack1 » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2009, 05:11:46 PM »

Thank you for your response.

 I would point out that Cusack is supposed to be a Norman Irish name from Cussac Guienne France. There are no L21's from that area of France.

From my genealogical research, I believe that Cusack may be an adoptive name. I'll know more when the Canadian Anouism project is complete.

There are R1b Jews who mostly come from Spain.

I appreciate your input. Thank you.


Guyenne wasn't Norman. It is the old name of a region in southwestern France, far from Normandy. The only "Cussac" I could find in France is in that area:

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=Cussac,Guienne,+France&ie=UTF8&ll=45.089036,0.878906&spn=16.345834,46.450195&z=5&iwloc=A

But you are right: thus far there isn't any R-L21* in SW France, although there is plenty of R-L21 elsewhere in France.
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pcusack1
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« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2009, 05:53:57 PM »

Guienne is indeed in SW France -not Normandy. But the histroians refer to Cusack as a Norman name because they entered Ireland in 1211 after the Normans.

There are actually 3 Cussac's in Frnace in various provinces.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2009, 05:55:07 PM by pcusack1 » Logged
pcusack1
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« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2009, 09:56:50 PM »

The 3 places in France named Cussac are in :Auvergne, Limousin, Broquies.

« Last Edit: August 11, 2009, 10:09:06 PM by pcusack1 » Logged
pcusack1
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« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2009, 08:51:13 AM »

According to www.Iberianroots.com, there are L21+ in Spain.  They are rare, (a sample size of 8) but they exist.
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rms2
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« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2009, 09:00:34 AM »

According to www.Iberianroots.com, there are L21+ in Spain.  They are rare, (a sample size of 8) but they exist.

Who said there aren't any L21 in Spain?

I don't know of eight, however, and I am in touch with that web site's owner on a regular basis.

I'll have to email him and ask him about that figure. Could you provide a better link than the site's home page?

EDIT: I see where you are getting that figure. He may have used some guys who are Latin American but cannot get their y lines out of the New World. I know personally that a few of them are actually not likely to have y-dna ancestry in Iberia, but some of them may.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2009, 09:03:52 AM by rms2 » Logged

pcusack1
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« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2009, 09:20:55 AM »

Yes here it is:

http://iberianroots.com/statistics/modals.html

Its the R1b1b2a1a2f  - L21+ at 8/2895 samples

Actually, I'm thinking you are probably right about the Irish vs Spanish L21+ match for my ancestry.  When I did a recount on the markers form Iberianroots.com allele's, the GD was 23 on 58.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2009, 09:32:35 AM by pcusack1 » Logged
pcusack1
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« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2009, 10:42:06 AM »

Dennis Wright says the Cusack surname is an Irish Type III orignating in Clare Co. rather than  Anglo Norman. That make more snese.
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rms2
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« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2009, 11:58:45 AM »

I emailed that web site's owner about that figure of eight Iberian R-L21*. Between the two of us, we could really only account for six, and, of those, only four can trace their ancestry to the Iberian peninsula. I know of another he didn't have on his list, so that makes five who can actually trace their ancestry to Iberia.
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rms2
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« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2009, 12:13:29 PM »

Dennis Wright says the Cusack surname is an Irish Type III orignating in Clare Co. rather than  Anglo Norman. That make more snese.

Sounds right. I saw a post on Rootsweb by Dennis Wright about a problem with reporting on 464 by Genebase that could keep some who are Irish Type III from realizing it, if they enter what they got from Genebase into YSearch.
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pcusack1
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« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2009, 12:47:30 PM »

We eventually got to the botom of it. Thanks!
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