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Author Topic: What can we call our ancient X haploblock ancestors in the 66 million block?  (Read 1675 times)
geneticgenie
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« on: May 25, 2009, 04:38:54 PM »

Now that we know the Neandertals were not closely related to us genetically, and Homo sapiens must have replaced them in Europe, many anthropologists seem to think this completely disproves the Multiregional evolution model. But is that to mean we must accept a total Out of Africa or Recent African Origin model? Even Spencer Wells has discovered more gene flow between populations than previously believed and will be presenting his findings in a National Geographic (Genographic) documentary in September, 2009. The climatic barriers in Africa have not always been barriers but are like cyclical gates.   

After looking at Alan Templeton's "Out of Africa again and again" model that I would have to agree that I am not a proponent of the Out of Africa total replacement theory but I would like to think there has been gene flow back to Africa through an Out-of-Asia expansion as well, something like this:
http://cogweb.ucla.edu/ep/Templeton_02.html

John Relethford coined the term "Mostly-Out-of-Africa" which makes more sense to me when I look at the information hidden in our DNA, especially on the X chromosome.

Our X chromosome data here and more importantly the HapMap data from the African Populations and Han Chinese really question the one-way-out theory.  Clearly our haploblock in the vicinity of the 66 million block has two distinct founders, one rooted in Africa matching the Yoruba and the other rooted _____???? matching the Han Chinese (personal observation of HapMap X chromosome data).  Did this "Asian" block start in Asia and pass back to Africa? It is certainly present in the Great Rift Valley in the HapMap data coming from Kenya, etc. So did it start there and move into Asia or the other way around? I guess it is like asking the question, which came first, the chicken or the egg?

I would like to name our ancestors appropriately in this Haploblock. I can find some nice Yoruba names for our "African" ancestor but I have not figured out where to place the origin of our "Asian".  Did this founder start in Africa and move to Asia, or vice versa? Unless we can test the X chromosome sequences from archaeological specimens, we may never be able to figure out the geographical origins exactly for either ancestor. Through genetic testing we should be able to come up with a name that is more fitting than "Lucy" the Australopithecine named after a Beatle's song. Some say the Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds = LSD but I guess John Lennon dispelled that myth. Bryan Sykes named the European mtDNA Eves and YDNA Adams, so why can't we name our X chromosome Eves here?  On the other hand, I guess these could have been Adams who spread the X all over creation. But it would have been X Eves who produced these diverse haplotypes in the first place.

Based on the differences In our sampling of 23andMe customers, Sean MacGorman Powell counted 336,415 base pairs, 0.34Mb with 61 sampled SNPs in the region rs1567524 through rs2497928. I counted 39 transition mutations and 12 transversion mutations in this small sampling.  HapMap has more information and the haploblocks are probably larger than ours reported here. We are avoiding genes and primarily taking the information from European and Middle Easterners. Some are anonymous donors. We need to look at other populations as well. In any event, our study group has uncovered that these X founders are very, very old and seem to be older than our species. But how old?

So how far in the distant past do these X Chromosome lines of descent converge? And what does that tell us about the age of our species? Certainly there is more to life and human origins than mtDNA and YDNA. Is any of our information here of interest to bioanthropologists?

Kathy
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Kathy J.
X Chromosomes: 75% English, 12.5% German, 6.25% Dutch, 3.125% Irish, 3.125% Scottish;
from Father's X: 43.75% English, 6.25% Dutch;
from Mother's X: 31.25% English, 12.5% German, 3.125% Irish, 3.125% Scottish
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« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2009, 11:18:45 AM »

I would like to name our ancestors appropriately in this Haploblock.

Since the X chromosome can be transmitted by either a male or a female, I guess we don't know which gender this ancestor would have been. In any case, I can think of two candidate names that are appropriate from a somewhat whimsical perspective...  the "66 million" block makes me think of U.S. Route 66, which was constructed largely due to the efforts of a man named Cyrus Avery.  The route itself was named "The Will Rogers Highway."  I kinda like the sound of "Cyrus" better than "Will."  Perhaps you're looking for a more Asian- or African-sounding name though.  :)

As for the question about how long ago these founders might have lived... who knows.  Given that the average recombination for that block comes out to 4658 generations, we could be looking somewhere on the order of around 140,000 years ago (using 30 years/generation--substitute your own multiplier if you prefer)... or at least that's the number of years before a recombination event would be expected to occur in that particular block, on average.

Sean
« Last Edit: May 28, 2009, 11:19:27 AM by Seán MacGorman Powell » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2009, 11:53:57 AM »

As for the question about how long ago these founders might have lived... who knows.  Given that the average recombination for that block comes out to 4658 generations, we could be looking somewhere on the order of around 140,000 years ago (using 30 years/generation--substitute your own multiplier if you prefer)... or at least that's the number of years before a recombination event would be expected to occur in that particular block, on average.

Sean

One thing occurred to me after I posted the above... calculations like this assume that recombination rates are the only thing that is preventing a block from remaining this intact over time, but mutation rates are another consideration.  For example, if the block in question has a very low recombination rate, but one of the SNPs in the block mutates very quickly, then the observed haplotypes would potentially be a lot younger than my estimate.  If the mutation rates of all the SNPs in the block were considerably slower than the average recombination rate, then mutation rates could perhaps be largely ignored for such an estimate.

Looking at this particular block, I see so little evidence of point mutations that it seems like recombination is a more important source of variability than mutation here.  Either that, or else there is a lot more mutation than we are seeing in this block, but we just don't have enough testees sampled yet from diverse populations to be able to see it (e.g., because most people in the spreadsheet are from Europe).
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« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2009, 08:43:49 PM »

I would like to name our ancestors appropriately in this Haploblock.

Since the X chromosome can be transmitted by either a male or a female, I guess we don't know which gender this ancestor would have been. In any case, I can think of two candidate names that are appropriate from a somewhat whimsical perspective...  the "66 million" block makes me think of U.S. Route 66, which was constructed largely due to the efforts of a man named Cyrus Avery.  The route itself was named "The Will Rogers Highway."  I kinda like the sound of "Cyrus" better than "Will."  Perhaps you're looking for a more Asian- or African-sounding name though.  :)

As for the question about how long ago these founders might have lived... who knows.  Given that the average recombination for that block comes out to 4658 generations, we could be looking somewhere on the order of around 140,000 years ago (using 30 years/generation--substitute your own multiplier if you prefer)... or at least that's the number of years before a recombination event would be expected to occur in that particular block, on average.

Sean

Cute, very cute. Route 66…
Are you serious about Cyrus?
Hmmm, maybe I will let the women vote on the two names. After all, you would not get these mutations without the women.

Well let’s have a little fun with this.

However, keep in mind that this may be the very oldest distinct haploblock ever discovered in the history of mankind  for a human or pre-human hominid.

So, I was thinking more along the lines of meaningful African names.  Or perhaps the one that is characteristic of humans in Asia is actually a piece of DNA that originated in Asia. Who knows?

Well, anyway, I will start with the female African names.
http://www.20000-names.com/female_african_names.htm

ABENI is a Yoruba name that means “we asked for her and we got her”.
Ben might like this one.

ADUOR African Luo name for “born at dawn”
Yeah, she may represent the dawn of civilization

AYIRA is an African Luo name meaning “the chosen one”

BAHATI is an African Swahili word for “good luck”

DAYO is an African Yoruba unisex name that means “joy arrives”

ESHE is an African Swahili name that means “life”

KATLEGO is an African Tswana unisex name meaning “success”
Yes, she certainly did have reproductive success.

NOSIZWE is an African Xhosa name meaning “mother of the nation”, but this name has already been taken by Nelson Mandela’s wife and I think our ancestor might get confused with her.

OLOLARA is a Yoruba name, “born at the right time”

OSUMARE is a Yoruba name for “rainbow”
Founder of a rainbow of colors in her offspring

RAMLA is African Zulu and Egyptian for “prophetess”

SAMANYA is a Bantu unisex name meaning “the unknown one”

SETHUNYA is a Tswana name meaning “bloom or flower”
OK, so, family trees blossom.

UZOMA is an African Igbo name meaning “follow the right road”
Well, she certainly got around and followed the road right out of Africa.

Well enough names for now. Any other suggestions?

Kathy

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Kathy J.
X Chromosomes: 75% English, 12.5% German, 6.25% Dutch, 3.125% Irish, 3.125% Scottish;
from Father's X: 43.75% English, 6.25% Dutch;
from Mother's X: 31.25% English, 12.5% German, 3.125% Irish, 3.125% Scottish
geneticgenie
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« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2009, 10:50:10 AM »

> Since the X chromosome can be transmitted by either a male or a female, I guess we don't know     >  which gender this ancestor would have been.

I suppose many of those copy mistakes initially could have been made by men or male pre-human primates too.  Somehow we ended up with two groups, or started with two subspecies?

> In any case, I can think of two candidate names that are appropriate from a
> somewhat whimsical perspective...  the "66 million" block makes me think of U.S.
> Route 66

Route 66 does have some symbolic meaning, as a road to opportunity, giving hope for survival during the Great Depression - my parents may have followed that route for a time with two kids and only $300 in their pocket and no job waiting for them in California.

> I kinda like the sound of "Cyrus"

OK, well, if you like Cyrus, then he can be the son of Uzoma.  Cyrus means “of the sun” and I rather like Uzoma too which means “follow the right road” so here is a touch of haploblock mythology to add to the more serious pre-history and population genetics with a little bit of free association:

Uzoma of Africa tells her son Cyrus to “follow the right road.” She tells him to go and populate the Earth.  He must first follow the sun. He must have many children, but in order for his DNA to survive he must not only have sons and grandsons because the secret that he has hidden in his genome will die.  He must also have daughters. If his daughters only have sons, then these sons must also have daughters. All the granddaughters can have sons and daughters, but sons must have daughters for this secret to live on through them.  Eventually the sons and daughters populate the World all the way to Route 66, going both east and west. 

So now you can get your kicks on Route 66, in more ways than one.

So this is the story of the yellow group. That is also assuming the Native Americans match you Sean, by matching the Asians perhaps.  I wish we could get some of them to test.

Kathy
« Last Edit: May 31, 2009, 10:53:35 AM by geneticgenie » Logged

Kathy J.
X Chromosomes: 75% English, 12.5% German, 6.25% Dutch, 3.125% Irish, 3.125% Scottish;
from Father's X: 43.75% English, 6.25% Dutch;
from Mother's X: 31.25% English, 12.5% German, 3.125% Irish, 3.125% Scottish
Seán MacGorman Powell
X-chromosome Project Administrator
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« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2009, 09:24:25 PM »

Cute, very cute. Route 66…
Are you serious about Cyrus?

Yes, I was serious--it just sounded like an interesting uncommon name (more uncommon than Eve, anyway).  I like your African names too--though they all sound too foreign to me to have a preference for any of them over the others.  They do have the advantage of sounding neutral-gender (most of them, anyway), which is good since we don't know the gender of the founder.  The name should ideally be one that people can remember though.
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