World Families Forums - R1b1b2/L23- in Italy

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
December 26, 2014, 10:14:33 AM
Home Help Search Login Register

+  World Families Forums
|-+  General Forums - Note: You must Be Logged In to post. Anyone can browse.
| |-+  R1b General (Moderator: rms2)
| | |-+  R1b1b2/L23- in Italy
« previous next »
Pages: [1] Go Down Print
Author Topic: R1b1b2/L23- in Italy  (Read 2906 times)
Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Online Online

Posts: 2158


« on: May 24, 2009, 02:17:37 AM »


In a posting  to “Genealogy-dna” Costas Tsirigakis   says:

Hello List,
R1b1b2* : L11- L23- L49- M153- M222- M269+ M37- M65- P310- P311- P312- P66-
SRY2627- U106- U152-
12,26,14,11,11,15,11,13,12,13,13,30 ( My uncle's haplotype - mother's
brother )
I mentioned the above haplotype,on the list, a couple of years ago - just
had some more deep-clade results in ( view above ).
My grandfather's ( maternal) lineage is from Malta - but the surname, from
what researchers say, is originally from Italy.
I have just subscribed to the DNA list in order to make this post - and
will unsubscribe soon after".

Why nobody in two years has mentioned this haplotype?
With DYS390=26 and DYS388=13, he has the most great variability among R1b1b2/L23- (see the “ht35 project”) and demonstrates that this haplogroup (the ancestor of all R1b1b2) has probably his origin in Italy.
 
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Online Online

Posts: 2158


« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2009, 08:07:54 AM »

Perhaps scholars (or pseudo-scholars) has buried too soon the presence of R1b1b2 in Western Europe. Which has the most variance between the Italian 12,26,14,11,11,15,11,13,12,13,13,30 and the Ibizan 10,24,14,11,11,14,-,12,12,13,13,29 ? The presence of DYS393 not only with the value of 12, but also 11 and also 10 or even 9 makes we think not only to a multistep mutations, but also to a very ancient presence of this haplotype in those places. We think it isn’t fortuitous that these haplotypes are to-day present in islands. We can think that the presence of R1b1b2 in Western Europe is very ancient and only those who received  farming  from East (Italy or nearby) by cultural diffusion,  they expanded to the rest of Europe.

“Hg R1 is common throughout western Eurasia and accounts for more than 30% of the Balkan Y-chromosome pool. With the exception of one R1a*-SRY10831.2 and five R1b1-M343* individuals, all the remaining R1 lineages belong to R1a1-M17* and R1b1b2-M269. These two subclades,
which show in Europe opposite-frequency gradients with maximum incidences in eastern and western region respectively, still display high values in northern Balkans and sensibly decrease  southward. R-M269 chromosomes are common in the Balkans and Anatolia and, according to
the observed internal divergence of their 49a,f branches, most likely predated the origin of agriculture. However, the current lack of informative Hg sub-division within these populations does not allow, at this time, to evaluate the role of R-M269 chromosomes during the transition to agriculture.” (Battaglia et alii, Y-chromosomal evidence of the cultural diffusion of agriculture in Southeast Europe, EJHG, 2009, 17, 822-823).
.
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

vtilroe
Project Coordinator
Old Hand
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 150


« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2009, 02:00:13 PM »

Have you seen the follow-up posts?

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2009-05/1243170201

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2009-05/1243179410

Quote
" My grandfather's surname is Darmanin ( Di + Armanino ) "

For those that are interested :

Variants of the above surname --- D'Armanino,D'Arman,Armani,
Armano,Armanini...etc

http://www.gens.labo.net/en/cognomi/ ( cognome = surname )

"Armani" is related to the Germanic "Herman" or "Armin", meaning soldier.

I'm curious to know if there is any etymological relationship of that with "Armenia".
« Last Edit: May 24, 2009, 02:07:46 PM by vtilroe » Logged

YSearch & MitoSearch: 2GXWW


yDNA: R-U106*


mtDNA: U5a1a1 (Genbank# GQ368895)


R-P312-WTY Project Admin http://tinyurl.com/daertg

Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Online Online

Posts: 2158


« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2009, 03:09:57 PM »

Many thanks, Tilroe, but not only I have seen these postings, but, having written privately to Costa, he has been so kind to send me these postings. The Italian surname "Armani" and similar is diffused overall in Italy. Also if it presupposes the german "Harimannus", like other surnames doesn't mean any link with the ancient ethnic origin of the name. Otherwise all Mattei, Giovacchini, Giannini and other millions would be Jews, and you can understand that this isn't possible. In Italian there is also the surname "Armeni", perhaps more linked with a possible Armenian origin.
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Online Online

Posts: 2158


« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2009, 03:18:22 PM »

Armanetti ha un piccolo ceppo nel bresciano, uno tra parmense e carrarese ed uno in Molise, Armanetto sembra essere unico, Armani è tipico del nord Italia, del basso trentino e del veronese in particolare, con ceppi significativi anche in Emilia, Armanini è dell'area che comprende il basso trentino e la Lombardia, Armanino è specifico dell'area genovese e spezzina, Armanni è lombardo della zona che comprende le province di Bergamo, Brescia e Cremona, Armanno ha un ceppo nel palermitano ed uno nel casertano, Armano ha un ceppo piemontese, soprattutto nell'alessandrino, uno veneto ed uno nel napoletano, tutti questi cognomi hanno origine, direttamente o tramite forme ipocoristiche, dal termine longobardo Harimann o Arimanno (uomini liberi), gli arimanni costituivano una forma di patriziato avendo la responsabilità di mantenere il potere del Re nei territori occupati. Assimilabili agli Equites (cavalieri) romani come livello di nobiltà.
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

vtilroe
Project Coordinator
Old Hand
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 150


« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2009, 05:34:57 PM »

My apologies, I do not read Italian very well.

http://translate.google.ca/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.worldfamilies.net%2Fforum%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D8774.msg111303%23msg111303&sl=it&tl=en&history_state0=

:)
Logged

YSearch & MitoSearch: 2GXWW


yDNA: R-U106*


mtDNA: U5a1a1 (Genbank# GQ368895)


R-P312-WTY Project Admin http://tinyurl.com/daertg

Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Online Online

Posts: 2158


« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2009, 06:43:29 PM »

I am seeing that the computer assisted translation has made a great deal of progress. I am sure you understood. This is an entry from "cognomi italiani" (Italian surnames).
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Online Online

Posts: 2158


« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2012, 09:42:14 AM »

I thank my friend Costa Tsirigakis for having sent to me with the permission to publish them the 37 values of his uncle:

12    26    14    11    11-15    11    13    12    13    13    30
16    9-10    11    12    26    15    19    29    15-15-17-17
12    11    19-23    15    16    15    18    38-38    12    12

Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2964


WWW
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2012, 11:32:16 AM »

I thank my friend Costa Tsirigakis for having sent to me with the permission to publish them the 37 values of his uncle:

12    26    14    11    11-15    11    13    12    13    13    30
16    9-10    11    12    26    15    19    29    15-15-17-17
12    11    19-23    15    16    15    18    38-38    12    12

Very good. What are his SNP test results?  Is he in Ysearch?  What is the MDKA origin?
Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Online Online

Posts: 2158


« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2012, 11:47:56 AM »

The SNPs are in the first posting of this thread:

R1b1b2* : L11- L23- L49- M153- M222- M269+ M37- M65- P310- P311- P312- P66-
SRY2627- U106- U152-

There is also the surname. Costa is a little bit mysterious. I think he has never put so far these data elsewhere. Probably I have been the first to know them, and I know only that his uncle matches closely a Sicilian whose he cannot say the name, I don't know why of course.
I did this little research on YHRD about this haplotype and sent it to Costa:

14 13 29 26 11 13 12 11,15 1 >>
14 13 30 25 11 13 12 11,15 1 >>
14 13 30 26 11 13 13 11,15 1 >>

1 14 13 29 26 11 13 12 11,15 12 12 15 19 15 16 24 11 >>
1 of 103 Valle de Cauca, Colombia [Mestizo] Admixed Latin America

1 14 13 30 25 11 13 12 11,15 12 12 15 19 16 16 23 11 >>
1 of 832 Sverdlovsk Region, Russian Federation [Russian] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Asia

1 14 13 30 26 11 13 13 11,15 12 12 15 18 15 17 23 11 >>
1 of 58 Limburg, Belgium [Belgian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Online Online

Posts: 2158


« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2012, 11:59:36 AM »

I have just received this letter from Costa:

Mention below -- also most distant ancestor is Malta 1500s

Your Haplogroup    Tests Taken
R1b1a2    M269+ U152- U106- SRY2627- P66- P312- P311- P310- M65- M37- M222- M153- L49- L23- L11-
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Online Online

Posts: 2158


« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2012, 12:08:20 PM »

>From: N P < np800@yahoo.com >
>Just noticed this haplotype :
12 26 14 11 11-15 11 13 12 13 13 30
16 9-10 11 12 26 15 19 29 15-15-17-17
12 11 19-23 15 16 15 18 38-38 12 12
>Rather unusual ( okay, I am a newbie )

My response:
Welcome to DNA genealogy, Nick.
There is nothing unusual in this haplotype, it is exactly (in term of mutations) where it should be. Its base haplotype (aka deduced ancestral haplotype) in the 37 marker format is as follows:
12 25 14 11 11-14 11 12 12 13 13 29
17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-16-17
10 11 19-23 15 15 19 17 35-38 12 12
The two have 19 mutations between them, which separates the current haplotype from its common ancestor by 19/0.09 = 211--> 266 conditional generations (25 years in each), or approximately by 6650 years. Since the R1b1a2* common ancestor lived around 7000 years ago, it is quite normal. 
In other words, 19-20 mutations from the base haplotype is what should be for the present-day R1b1a2* haplotypes.   
Regards,
Anatole Klyosov

This has just written Anatole Klyosov on Rootsweb and that I have found on YHRD a close haplotype at Sverdlovsk will confirm him in his odd theories!

Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Online Online

Posts: 2158


« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2012, 08:10:18 AM »

There is now a Ysearch account: KWP2Z. 
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

chcraigca
New Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2


« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2014, 08:30:08 PM »

You folks sound pretty sophisticated, so don't scalp me for ignorance, please!  My PhD is in metallurgical engineering; I'm currently working on my GED in DNA.  :c)

FTDNA shows me as R1b1a2a1a1be3c* and my 23andMe results, just in, show me as R1b1b2a1a2d3*.  My DYS385a value is 10.  Any thoughts on the disparity or the DYS value that appears to match up with some of what you are saying about the derivation of the R1b folks?
Logged

chcraigca
Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 106


« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2014, 10:44:11 AM »

You folks sound pretty sophisticated, so don't scalp me for ignorance, please!  My PhD is in metallurgical engineering; I'm currently working on my GED in DNA.  :c)

FTDNA shows me as R1b1a2a1a1be3c* and my 23andMe results, just in, show me as R1b1b2a1a2d3*.  My DYS385a value is 10.  Any thoughts on the disparity or the DYS value that appears to match up with some of what you are saying about the derivation of the R1b folks?

Did you mean R1b1a2a1a1b3c* shown from FTDNA?  If you so you are L2+.   The R1b1b2a1a2d3* designation is ISOGG and it is the same as R1b1a2a1a1b3c*

There are some subclades below L2:

Grouping of U152/L2:

· R1b1a2a1a1b3c L2
·   R1b1a2a1a1b3c1 L20
.   R1b1a2a1a1b3c1a M228.2
·   R1b1a2a1a1b3c2 L196
·   R1b1a2a1a1b3c3 Z49
.   R1b1a2a1a1b3c3a Z142
.   R1b1a2a1a1b3c3a1 L562

Have you tested these?

My current level of testing is L2+, Z49+ and Z142+ (L20-, L196-, and L562-) or aka R1b1a2a1a1b3c3a.  

Do you have a http://ysearch.org/ designation?  You can input your STR information there for free!

Curtis

« Last Edit: January 07, 2014, 11:20:17 AM by Curtis Pigman(Pigmon) » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b3c3a L2+ Z49+ Z142+ Z150/Z12222+ (L20-,L196-,and L562-)
ysearch.org ID ZHHCY

Website:  curtisnsissy.tripod.com
chcraigca
New Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2


« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2014, 02:37:44 PM »

Thanks, Curtis; that's very helpful.  I'd noted the ISOGG but had mistakenly determined the FTDNA equivalent to be R1b1b2a1b4c, rather than as you have shown it, which is what FTDNA shows me as being.  As to additional testing, I'm currently awaiting the "Big Y" results and am hopeful that will help determine any differences between my Craig line and the Vance Group 8 line that I seem to fit into equally well.
Logged

chcraigca
Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 106


« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2014, 05:36:45 PM »

I would suggest you consider joining the U152 and subclades group.  Here is their link:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-U152,R1b-U152,R1b-U152/default.aspx


Curtis
« Last Edit: January 07, 2014, 05:39:09 PM by Curtis Pigman(Pigmon) » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b3c3a L2+ Z49+ Z142+ Z150/Z12222+ (L20-,L196-,and L562-)
ysearch.org ID ZHHCY

Website:  curtisnsissy.tripod.com
Pages: [1] Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


SEO light theme by © Mustang forums. Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC

Page created in 0.225 seconds with 18 queries.