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Author Topic: The expansion from Italy to the British Isles  (Read 3561 times)
Maliclavelli
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« on: May 13, 2009, 01:49:48 PM »

An incontrovertible proof of the expansion from Italy to the British Isles is given from Haplogroup G2a. The Italian Villoni (Ysearch 5G372) and the British “Celts” Whittaker (ZV7H6, HTK7G) Nolen (4HQ5E), Reed (9FF92), Laird (QEDRW) are clearly related, for having DYS19a,b 15-16 (Laird hasn’t it either for having lost or not for having been tested). The MRCA among them is from 3600YBP (0,002 rate) or more, using other mutation rate.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2009, 07:49:25 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2009, 06:44:00 PM »

Great work! I better not say much. I have already been threatened with public banishment.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2009, 05:44:44 AM »

In the "Haplogroup G project" of FTDNA is written: "Nolen's first DYS385 value has to be ignored in comparisons because an ancestor apparently underwent a mutation of multiple values which was in effect a single mutation.  Most software
will erroneously count this as multiple mutations.  However, there are problems with this sample - even ignoring that one mutation.  In the phylogenetic diagrams he and Villoni share a branch with an adjacent group that lacks the double DYS19 feature rather than with the double DYS19 group. Presumably the double DYS19 is more important in determining the common ancestor".
But saying that, also the luminaries of the "G project" link the "Celt" Nolen (and all the others with DYS385=9,14) and the Italian Villoni. I would say to all these luminaries that DYS19a,b=15,16 presupposes a more ancient 15,15, not yet found, and that 15,17 is derived and it hasn't  to be put as first in the list.
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Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2009, 06:11:56 AM »

I ask the luminaries: "Is it possible that a DYS19=15,15 results at the test only DYS19=15 and that these are the DYS19=15,15 we are looking for?"
« Last Edit: May 15, 2009, 06:15:42 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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rms2
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« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2009, 11:22:29 AM »

An incontrovertible proof of the expansion from Italy to the British Isles is given from Haplogroup G2a. The Italian Villoni (Ysearch 5G372) and the British “Celts” Whittaker (ZV7H6, HTK7G) Nolen (4HQ5E), Reed (9FF92), Laird (QEDRW) are clearly related, for having DYS19a,b 15-16 (Laird hasn’t it either for having lost or not for having been tested). The MRCA among them is from 3600YBP (0,002 rate) or more, using other mutation rate.

I am wondering how that constitutes "incontrovertible proof", given that the Romans controlled Britain for nearly 400 years during the historical period and no doubt introduced any number of different y-dna lines into the insular population.

A TMRCA of 3600 years just means that those men shared a common ancestor around 1600 BC (give or take the margin of error), not that the British ones had an ancestor who emerged from an Italian Ice Age refugium.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2009, 11:38:50 AM by rms2 » Logged

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2009, 01:41:16 PM »

I counted again the GD among Villoni and Nolen/Laird. Also not counting over 5 DYS385a (9 against 14) but over 1, as the luminaries of the “Haplogroup G project” suggest, we have a GD Villoni/Nolen as 23 on 67 markers and Villoni/Laird 19 on 37 markers. I think you will agree that it isn’t the same, being Nolen and Laird strictly related. There are many very slow markers and in a short period of time they  don’t say anything for our calculations. Also calculating the MRCA between Villoni and Laird at a GD of 19 over 37 markers and at the minimum rate of 0,002, we have 3900YBP. This isn’t the out of the Italian refugium, but for example the theory of Nolen re the Vesuvius’  eruption of about the 18th century BC, for which he says he was banned from two forums. Even though I’d have something to say on the link between the surname Nolen and the town of Nola (Nola was on Oscan town and its name is from *Nuvila/Nuvela from *nouo-la “Newton” and before the Oscan conquest was an Etruscan town named  “Uri”) and migrants of the 18th century BC couldn’t know this name(but we could think to a name survived in the memory and certainly a town named *Nuvila could exist elsewhere in Italy), the theory of Nolen is genetically credible if all these Celt persons are related to the Villoni from Campania, the region of Nola and  Vesuvius. And it isn’t true what the luminaries write, that Haplogroup G in the UK isn’t present in the ancient Celtic region: all these person have a Celt surname and the most ancient Hg. G in the UK are in Celt regions.
The Italian refugium is another thing and probably my friend Gioiello Tognoni could demonstrate his theories if he could write on the forums that banned him.
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Jean M
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« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2009, 07:20:04 AM »

I suspect that some subclades of Y-DNA haplogroup G were metal-workers from the North Caucasus recruited by the Proto-Indo-Euopean-speakers of the nearby steppe and travelling with them both west and east. One group of Proto-Italic-Celtic speakers seems to have broken away from the mother group in the Danube Basin early on and travelled down to the Adriatic, across to northern Italy and from there on to Iberia. That route then seems to have been followed by others settling everywhere along the way, including spreading down into central Italy to become Italic-speakers. 

Before that G spread into Anatolia. Extracts from my article:

Quote
Smiths in Mesopotamia apparently discovered that arsenic mixed with copper made a harder alloy - the first type of bronze. The first cities in the world appeared in Mesopotamia around 3,600 BC. Civilization had a huge appetite for metal. That craving brought wealth and knowledge of this type of bronze-making to the Maikop Culture (c.3,700-3,000 BC) of the mineral-rich North Caucasus. The high level and diversity of Y-DNA haplogroup G in the Caucasus suggests that it arose there. In which case its distribution may be partly explained by the spread of the metal-working and mining that made the Maikop Culture astonishingly wealthy. Chiefdoms sprang up in the Caucasus which spread their influence south, apparently controlling the metal trade in the Levant and Mesopotamia. The Hurrians of northern Mesopotamia and the Hatti of Anatolia both appear in history in approximately 2,500 B.C. and apparently spoke Caucasian languages. The former were famed for their metallurgy. Cinnioglu and colleagues found that the present-day distribution of haplogroup G in Anatolia correlates with the Hattic culture.

Initially copper would have been taken from surface outcrops, but when those gave out, mining began. The search for copper had spread to northern Italy by c. 3,500 B.C., where the earliest known copper mines in Western Europe were found at Monte Loreto (Castiglione Chiavarese, Liguria).

Another rich Copper-Age culture appeared in Iberia c. 3,300 B.C., accompanied by social changes. The two foci were the impressive, fortified settlements of Zambujal (Torres Vedras, Portugal) and Los Millares (Almería, Spain)....

So where had the copper technology come from? Y-chromosome haplogroup G is generally found at low levels across Europe. Hotspots coincide with early copper-working in the Austrian Tyrol, Caucasus, Portugal, Sardinia, North-East Italy and Tuscany..... Although men from Maikop could not have brought metal-working to Sardinia c. 4,000 BC, G-men could have worked there later, in the revival of European metal-working, after a long decline presumably resulting from the collapse of Old Europe.

The Maikop Culture played the middle-man between civilization to the south and the steppes to the north....

Although Haplogroup G arose long before Proto-Indo-European, most of its distribution across Eurasia would fit the spread of the Indo-European-speakers, including those few who traded along the Silk Road to China. The earliest G arrivals in Western Europe could be reflected in G2a found in Italy, Iberia and Sardinia. So perhaps smiths from the North Caucasus were recruited by Yamnaya bands. Marriage alliances which brought valuable metal-workers into a tribe have been suggested as a means by which metal-working spread. Each smith would be expected to train his sons in the craft. So G descendants would then move with the migrations east and west, or even ahead of them, as prospectors. It should be stressed that not all of G's distribution can be explained in this way. (A separate spread into Anatolia has already been mentioned, and subclade G2c seems composed almost exclusively of Ashkenazi Jews.) That any of it can be so explained remains a hypothesis to be tested.

http://www.buildinghistory.org/articles/peoplingeurope.shtml



« Last Edit: May 17, 2009, 07:25:38 AM by Jean M » Logged
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« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2009, 10:30:49 AM »

"Even though I’d have something to say on the link between the surname Nolen and the town of Nola ..."

http://www.bencourtney.com/ebooks/livy/

THE HISTORY OF ROME.
BY TITUS LIVIUS.
BOOKS NINE TO TWENTY-SIX.
LITERALLY TRANSLATED, WITH NOTES
AND ILLUSTRATIONS, BY D. SPILLAN
AND CYRUS EDMONDS.
1868.

“territory of Nola”

"of the Nolans"
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« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2009, 10:50:54 AM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livy

"Titus Livius (traditionally 59 BC – AD 17[1]), known as Livy in English,"

"Livy's work met with instant acclaim. His books were published in sets of ten, although when entirely completed, his whole work was available for sale in its entirety. His highly literary approach to his historical writing renders his works very entertaining, and they remained constantly popular from his own day, through the Middle Ages, and into the modern world."
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Jean M
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« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2009, 10:54:56 AM »

"Even though I’d have something to say on the link between the surname Nolen and the town of Nola ..."

I'm really sorry if this upsets a favourite idea, but in Ireland hereditary surnames are unknown prior to the 10th century A.D. Even then the idea was very new and did not catch on fully until later centuries.

Nolan and Nolen are apparently derived from Ó Nualláin meaning "descendent of Nuallán". The name Nuallán means "champion" or "chariot fighter".


 
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« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2009, 11:04:17 AM »

This is all in 1,000 Years of O'Nolan (O'Huallachain) History. Plus, this history goes further back than the "10th century A.D."

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nolenancestry/page1.html

1,000 Years of O'Nolan History
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Jean M
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« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2009, 11:21:48 AM »

This is all in 1,000 Years of O'Nolan (O'Huallachain) History. Plus, this history goes further back than the "10th century A.D."

Yes I understand that there is a lot of genealogical material going back further, but the concept of an hereditary surname dates from the 10th century AD. That is a name (such as Nolen) that descends from father to child unchanged. You will notice that in the earlier genealogies that does not happen. Such names were not used. Someone might be described as A, son of B. Then his child might be C, son of A, and so on.

(By the way, and I know that it will enrage you for me to say this, but as an historian I am honour bound to say that mythology should not be accepted as factual.) 
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« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2009, 11:23:26 AM »

Please do not argue about my own genealogy until you have something substantial to add. 

Thanks,
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Jean M
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« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2009, 11:51:38 AM »

Oh you can silence me easily enough Mr Nolen. I've said what I felt I ought to say, for the benefit of other readers. I haven't the heart to keep arguing with you.
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« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2009, 01:53:07 PM »

Let me know when you are a thirty-year veteran of Nolan genealogical research. Then we may have something to discuss! Less than five minutes of research simply doesn’t do the surname justice.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2009, 07:26:59 AM »

Dear Mr Nolan, I think you have done a good work on the Nolan’s genealogy. We are not arguing this. We have some doubt on that “Nolan/Nolen” derives from Latin “Nolanus = inhabitant of Nola”. Mrs Jean Manco says that “Nolan and Nolen are apparently derived from O Nuallain meaning ‘descendent of Nuallan’. The name Nuallan means ‘champion’ or ‘chariot fighter’”. I have no reason to say if this is true or not, but Mrs Manco is a scholar and I think we must take seriously her opinions. Then an opinion can be true or not, but anyway everything must be demonstrated. We are searching for truth and must exam every  hypotheses. I did doubt on that, if your ancestors came from Italy after the first eruption of Vesuvius (18th century BC)  they can take with them the name “Nolanus”, that didn’t exist then. If your hypothesis is true, we could think to an origin during the Roman Empire, when some “Nolanus” could have reached  the British Isles. Ours are scientific hypotheses, and not personal offences.
But I would desire that any discussion is concentrated on other questions I put:
1)   Is reliable, by a genetic point of view, my hypothesis that DYS19= 15 could be a 15,15?
2)   Is reliable the hypothesis of Jean Manco that hg. G2a was that of some Caucasian smiths or miners come to Europe with Indo-Europeans, if they came from East recently (3d millennium BC)?
Villoni is in Italy a rare surname, practically a unique family, and we don’t know if this haplotype is unique in Italy or not. And if we discover, by a genealogical inquire, that Villoni is from a possible French Villon, how should change our hypotheses?
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« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2009, 09:07:39 AM »

Maliclavelli - You are very kind, but I must disclaim any special knowledge of Irish surnames and genealogy beyond the basics. My knowledge of the way in which hereditary surnames developed is more general.

In brief the Romans developed a system of hereditary names born by male full citizens. This system was different from the modern one, and not used in a consistent way. It was lost in Western Europe after the fall of the Western Empire. For centuries afterwards most people had a single name, though they might be distinguished from others of that name by the addition of some descriptive words e.g. Eric the Red, Niall of the Nine Hostages, or the formula X son/daughter of Y.

Hereditary surnames were adopted at different periods in different countries. The Irish Times claims that Ireland was among the first countries in Europe to adopt hereditary surnames (clan names in the format O'personal name, originally Ua personal name) and I have no reason to doubt it. This type of surname began to appear in the 10th century, it says, but goes on to stress that this does not mean that all the Irish adopted surnames at this time. The process was slow and took 600 years to consolidate.

From his webpage it is clear that Mr Nolen accepts that the name Nolen is modern in its present form and derives from the early Irish surname form O'Nolan or O'Nuallain or Ui Nuallain, meaning grandson or descendant of Nuallain or Nuallán. (The particular meaning of the name Nuallán is not important.)

So I am unsure where the idea came from that Nolen simultaneously means something completely different at a period when there were no such surnames. But clearly Mr Nolen is very much attached to this idea. And since it is his ancestry we are talking about, he naturally has a lot of personal feeling invested in it.
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Jean M
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« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2009, 10:16:40 AM »

Quote from: Maliclavelli link=topic=8761.msg111223#msg111223

Is reliable the hypothesis of Jean M. that hg. G2a was that of some Caucasian smiths or miners come to Europe with Indo-Europeans ...

This hypothesis requires testing. I would like to see some aDNA studies of the skeletons buried with metal-working tools in the Yamnaya culture and those which descend from it.

It is interesting that one G2a carrier reports an ancestry with a tradition of metal working back to the 1400s AD. But we can't hope to get back further than that in written records. And I would expect few cases in which metal-working was handed down in a family for thousands of years.
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« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2009, 11:23:19 AM »

"Mrs. Manco is a scholar and I think we must take seriously her opinions."

She is not a scholar of Nolan genealogy or DNA analysis, for that matter. She has no Nolan Y-DNA! 

I don't challenge her genealogy. She is not a credible expert on Nolan genealogy or DNA analysis.

She appears to be knowledgeable on linguistic and archaeological matters, however, as I keep pointing out this is not the linguistic and archaeological industry.

This is craziness! Let me know when she has years of Irish genealogical experience.   

"So I am unsure where the idea came from that Nolen simultaneously means something completely different at a period when there were no such surnames."

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nolenancestry/page1.html

1,000 Years of O'Nolan History

Where is Mrs. Manco's Nolan genealogy and DNA analysis to be examined? Absolute craziness! She is not a Nolan genealogist! And she has no Nolan Y-DNA for analysis.

This industry is a joke! If you or others wish to hold her out as some type of genealogical or DNA analysis guru for the Irish or the Nolan surname, be my guest!

This thread is meaningless! She is not a scholar of Irish ancestry or the Nolan surname, as per her own words.

“but I must disclaim any special knowledge of Irish surnames and genealogy beyond the basics.”

Goodbye!

This industry is such a joke! It’s pitiful!

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Jean M
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« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2009, 11:44:00 AM »

Do calm down Mr Nolen. You can carry on believing whatever you wish. No-one can prevent you. I understand how upsetting it must be to have someone question what you have built up over 30 years. And I don't want you having a heart attack on me. So I promised silence and will happily return to it.





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« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2009, 12:53:34 PM »

Produce your research on Nolan genealogy and DNA analysis!

"Where is Mrs. Manco's Nolan genealogy and DNA analysis to be examined?"
 
Thanks,
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