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Mike Walsh
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« on: May 04, 2009, 04:14:08 PM »

Have we already got a Welsh R-L21* thread? I couldn't find it. Kill this thread if there is one.

A new person (Lewis) on the Wales DNA project has been declared L21*.  His kit # 44100 and I asked him to join the L21 project.
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rms2
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« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2009, 07:01:39 PM »

Have we already got a Welsh R-L21* thread? I couldn't find it. Kill this thread if there is one.

A new person (Lewis) on the Wales DNA project has been declared L21*.  His kit # 44100 and I asked him to join the L21 project.


Well, your recruiting effort was successful. Lewis joined the project today. Thanks!

Our Welsh category is steadily growing.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2009, 08:47:26 PM »

I've been doing some Y Search pulls on haplogroup as well as looking at some of the public results from various FTDNA projects.   Here are the additional MDKA's/haplotypes I've found that show up as R1b1b2a1b5 (with no "b" on the end) and list Wales as an origin.

The code after the surname is where I found the data and the date I found it.   Perhaps Susan R, admin for the Wales DNA project, can help contact these people to have them join L21, or perhaps she already did.

CWM7C  Moore  YSearch-041309
A62AN   Sparks YSearch-041309
44048   Lewis   FT-WALES-050409
14006   Priest   FT-WALES-041609
137075 Jones   FT-WALES-041609
16918   Ming     FT-WALES-042509
8551     Evan     FT-WALES-050409
82932   Wynne  FT-WALES-050409

Please note.  This is not double checked so there could be errors.
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rms2
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« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2009, 07:50:03 AM »

I've already contacted some of those people. Moore is trying to join but is having some computer problems. I referred him to Ashley Coursey at FTDNA, but it remains to be seen if he'll follow through or not.

I'll try sending the rest another email when I get the chance. Sometimes it takes me pestering folks a couple of times to get them in.
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susanrosine
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« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2009, 09:54:36 PM »

Glad to see someone started this topic! I am the (relatively) new co-admin for the Wales_Cymru DNA project.  I am very interested in R-L21*, since it is currently in the lead in our project as the most common R1b1b2 subclade in Wales.
I will definitely send out a request for the L21* men to also join the L21 project!!
Susan Rosine
Logged

Dad: JAMES:  Ysearch QSCQ3;  R-P312, L21+ (R1b1b2a1b5*)
Dad: mitosearch QSCQ3; T1a; no matches HVR2 or FGS
Mom's brother: LEWTER: Ysearch FYFDA;  R-U106, L48+ (R1b1b2a1a*)
Mom's brother: mitosearch FYFDA, U5b2; 1 exac
rms2
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« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2009, 08:36:10 PM »

Here is something interesting I stumbled across:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyTflhq-tJI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0mFAVr9Uf8
« Last Edit: May 23, 2009, 08:40:13 PM by rms2 » Logged

susanrosine
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« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2009, 01:16:14 AM »

FUN!!! Thanks for posting the youtube links!
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Dad: JAMES:  Ysearch QSCQ3;  R-P312, L21+ (R1b1b2a1b5*)
Dad: mitosearch QSCQ3; T1a; no matches HVR2 or FGS
Mom's brother: LEWTER: Ysearch FYFDA;  R-U106, L48+ (R1b1b2a1a*)
Mom's brother: mitosearch FYFDA, U5b2; 1 exac
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2009, 12:17:48 AM »

I was just on the Wales DNA web site and thought I'd do a quick count of those who've done deep clade R testing.
P312* 4
U106+ 5
U152+ 2
M222+ 5
L21* 25

As I believe Susan has already told us, of the deep SNP tested Wales R1b1b2 people, R-L21* is the most common....   and as RMS2 would point out, testing for L21 is a recent capability so perhaps the proportions are a little stronger L21* that what appears above.

Over 75 R1b1b2 type in the project haven't done deep clade R testing.  It'd be nice if they did.

Here is a thought likely to rile some feathers - Is it possible that M222+ actually originated on the Island of Great Britain and then migrated with some clan over to Ireland?
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vtilroe
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« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2009, 01:31:39 AM »

I have serious doubts, but I'm curious as to why one would think so.  Actually, my pet theory is that the pre-M222 lineage may have come from Scandinavia/Norway.  ;)
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YSearch & MitoSearch: 2GXWW


yDNA: R-U106*


mtDNA: U5a1a1 (Genbank# GQ368895)


R-P312-WTY Project Admin http://tinyurl.com/daertg

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« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2009, 11:44:16 AM »

I have serious doubts, but I'm curious as to why one would think so.  Actually, my pet theory is that the pre-M222 lineage may have come from Scandinavia/Norway.  ;)
I don't really think M222+ originated on Great Britain, but just thought it was a good question.  The reason I thought so was that Celtic author, archaeologist and linguist Henri Hubert believes the Goidels come into Ireland through Great Britain.  Of course the L21* distribution pattern could fit a Goidel expansion pattern.   Since M222+ is a descendant of L21+, it's possible to have originated in-route to Ireland.
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susanrosine
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« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2009, 12:04:41 PM »

I was just on the Wales DNA web site and thought I'd do a quick count of those who've done deep clade R testing.
P312* 4
U106+ 5
U152+ 2
M222+ 5
L21* 25

As I believe Susan has already told us, of the deep SNP tested Wales R1b1b2 people, R-L21* is the most common....   and as RMS2 would point out, testing for L21 is a recent capability so perhaps the proportions are a little stronger L21* that what appears above.

Over 75 R1b1b2 type in the project haven't done deep clade R testing.  It'd be nice if they did.

Just thought I'd better mention that of the five M222 results we have are really only THREE ancestors.  There are three EVANS men who are M222 who obviously share the same Evans ancestor, though they haven't made the hook up yet. The two other surnames are GWINN and JOHN--three very Welsh surnames!!!

Judging by the surnames of the U106 and U152 men, most are "invaders" to Wales--meaning most don't have a "Welsh" surname (e.g. Whitfield, Picton, Robards are NOT Welsh).  I think L21 will stay in the lead.  If I was independently wealthy, I'd just pay for everyone in the project to get a deep clade test!!
Logged

Dad: JAMES:  Ysearch QSCQ3;  R-P312, L21+ (R1b1b2a1b5*)
Dad: mitosearch QSCQ3; T1a; no matches HVR2 or FGS
Mom's brother: LEWTER: Ysearch FYFDA;  R-U106, L48+ (R1b1b2a1a*)
Mom's brother: mitosearch FYFDA, U5b2; 1 exac
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2009, 09:46:12 PM »

....
Judging by the surnames of the U106 and U152 men, most are "invaders" to Wales--meaning most don't have a "Welsh" surname (e.g. Whitfield, Picton, Robards are NOT Welsh).  I think L21 will stay in the lead.  If I was independently wealthy, I'd just pay for everyone in the project to get a deep clade test!!
I don't know Whitfield, Picton or Robards but I'd be careful about classifying them as not Welsh.  They might feel different, especially if their families have been in Wales a long time.   
This brings up a different of a question that I don't think is about DNA.  What is Welsh?   There might be some people of Roman descent that have been in Wales for 2,000 years or of Norman descent who have been there 1,000 years.   There might be some Gaels from Ireland who have been there 2,500 years....., etc., etc.
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susanrosine
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« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2009, 10:49:51 PM »

....
Judging by the surnames of the U106 and U152 men, most are "invaders" to Wales--meaning most don't have a "Welsh" surname (e.g. Whitfield, Picton, Robards are NOT Welsh).  I think L21 will stay in the lead.  If I was independently wealthy, I'd just pay for everyone in the project to get a deep clade test!!
I don't know Whitfield, Picton or Robards but I'd be careful about classifying them as not Welsh.  They might feel different, especially if their families have been in Wales a long time.   
This brings up a different of a question that I don't think is about DNA.  What is Welsh?   There might be some people of Roman descent that have been in Wales for 2,000 years or of Norman descent who have been there 1,000 years.   There might be some Gaels from Ireland who have been there 2,500 years....., etc., etc.
Perhaps better to state that the origin of the surname is definitely not Welsh (celtic). Anyone who is born in Wales would be Welsh!! :-)
If the origin of the name is not Welsh (Celtic), then likely these surnames arrived in Wales after 1066 or after the 1200s. Non-Welsh in general took on surnames before the Welsh did--the Welsh in some cases being forced to take surnames. Since their system was patronymic, it is usually easy to spot a Welsh name. Powell = ap Howell (son of Howell).  Price (ap Rhys or Rees), and first names became last names--Lewis, Meredith, John/Jones, David/Davis, Griffith, etc.
The Welsh very rarely took place or occupational surnames (try looking for a Baker, Smith, or Townsend in the Welsh census--not a lot).
Whitfield is likely English, Picton is unclear but unlikely Welsh, and Robards is French I believe.  Of course I'm referring to the surnames themselves. I believe the Picton family itself has been able to prove their line back to the 1200's in Wales.

Yes, your question does involve DNA in a way. What is Welsh? Well right now we can say the majority of Welsh appear to be some type of R1b1b2, mostly L21. Does this mean the original people who settled in that area (after LGM) were R1b1b2? Probably not??? What were they??? Not sure!!!  Are these original inhabitants the first "Welsh"? The first inhabitants likely did not speaking "Welsh" (or any form of Celtic language).  So what is "Welsh"? Ask the Welsh, they'll tell you!!! :-)
Logged

Dad: JAMES:  Ysearch QSCQ3;  R-P312, L21+ (R1b1b2a1b5*)
Dad: mitosearch QSCQ3; T1a; no matches HVR2 or FGS
Mom's brother: LEWTER: Ysearch FYFDA;  R-U106, L48+ (R1b1b2a1a*)
Mom's brother: mitosearch FYFDA, U5b2; 1 exac
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2009, 07:18:26 PM »

I don't know how long it takes for a deep clade R test to come in, but Morgan (WTDAE) from Wales has ordered it.  He already has 67 markers.
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rms2
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« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2009, 07:20:39 AM »

I don't know how long it takes for a deep clade R test to come in, but Morgan (WTDAE) from Wales has ordered it.  He already has 67 markers.

Cool!

It usually takes about a month before the initial results start appearing at the bottom of the "Haplotree" page. Some get them even sooner, but then there are those whose results take longer for some reason.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2009, 01:13:43 AM »

I've been doing some Y Search pulls on haplogroup as well as looking at some of the public results from various FTDNA projects.   Here are the additional MDKA's/haplotypes I've found that show up as R1b1b2a1b5 (with no "b" on the end) and list Wales as an origin....
Here is an updated list that are theoretically confirmed, in other words they have R1b1b2a1b5 as their haplogroup in either Ysearch or FTDNA.  Looks like 22 in all.

EMAXR   100715   Bowen   Truman Bowen 1786-1831 Chalmers,McDonough,IL;Wales
8J7SB   13026   Davis   Uriah Davis b. Hammersmith, England d 1767 MD 
NBCVS   ?????     Dicks   
EQ4Y7   72173   Edwards   Robert William Edwards b1842 Caernarvon, Wales 
?????   8551           Evan   Rhydderch Evan b.c.1700, Llantrisant, Glam.,Wales
FXJM7   141682   Evans   
55HKE   ?????           Griffith   
BPHSG   74975   Humphrey   Griffith Humphrey, b.1792, Llangwnnadl, Caernarvon 
QSCQ3   35874   James   David James b. 1669 Wales; d. 1739 Chester Co, PA 
?????   137075   Jones   Jones of Wales
3QPGN   44048   Lewis   Richard Lewis, b.1592 Monmouthshire, Wales
WZDQY   44100   Lewis   Charles P. Lewis (John Lewis Wales)
S6MTG   ?????    Lewis   
Z8YYY   16918   Ming   Joseph Ming, b. traditionally Wales, d.1707NC L21?
CWM7C   ????? Moore   
XXGJZ   19706   Price   Rees Prees/ap Rees/Rees/Price, b.c. 1650, Wales 
DCR6U   14006   Priest   David Priest b.1698 d. Lancaster Co. PA in 1745
?????   93906   Pugh   David Pugh circa 1650-1695 Merionethshire, Wales
UYZCQ   62242   Sloop   Sloop of Wales 
A62AN   ?????    Sparks   
3CR7S   N5410   Thomas   Rees Thomas, Pembroke, Wales
?????   82932   Wynne   Wynne; Yorktown, Virginia (origin Welsh border?)
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susanrosine
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« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2009, 03:24:46 PM »

I've been doing some Y Search pulls on haplogroup as well as looking at some of the public results from various FTDNA projects.   Here are the additional MDKA's/haplotypes I've found that show up as R1b1b2a1b5 (with no "b" on the end) and list Wales as an origin....
Here is an updated list that are theoretically confirmed, in other words they have R1b1b2a1b5 as their haplogroup in either Ysearch or FTDNA.  Looks like 22 in all.
Mike, here's new info for you:

NBCVS   ?????   Dicks                    Kit number is 85661
?????   8551   Roderick/Rhydderch  Y-search is CXPPP
?????   137075   Jones                    Y search is SN9NZ
?????   93906   Pugh                    Does not have Y-search account
UYZCQ   62242   Sloop                    true surname is unknown.
?????   82932   Wynne                    Does not have Y-search account
Logged

Dad: JAMES:  Ysearch QSCQ3;  R-P312, L21+ (R1b1b2a1b5*)
Dad: mitosearch QSCQ3; T1a; no matches HVR2 or FGS
Mom's brother: LEWTER: Ysearch FYFDA;  R-U106, L48+ (R1b1b2a1a*)
Mom's brother: mitosearch FYFDA, U5b2; 1 exac
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« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2009, 12:58:26 PM »

Glad to see someone started this topic! I am the (relatively) new co-admin for the Wales_Cymru DNA project.  I am very interested in R-L21*, since it is currently in the lead in our project as the most common R1b1b2 subclade in Wales.
I will definitely send out a request for the L21* men to also join the L21 project!!
Susan Rosine

Have you or someone created a R-L21 Welsh  67 marker Modal?
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
susanrosine
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« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2009, 04:06:45 PM »

Glad to see someone started this topic! I am the (relatively) new co-admin for the Wales_Cymru DNA project.  I am very interested in R-L21*, since it is currently in the lead in our project as the most common R1b1b2 subclade in Wales.
I will definitely send out a request for the L21* men to also join the L21 project!!
Susan Rosine

Have you or someone created a R-L21 Welsh  67 marker Modal?
I have not, and to my knowledge no one else has either. The trouble is, R-L21 is WAMH. Don't know if Wales will show any difference. We will need lots more men in our project to test for L21 before we can do much.
Logged

Dad: JAMES:  Ysearch QSCQ3;  R-P312, L21+ (R1b1b2a1b5*)
Dad: mitosearch QSCQ3; T1a; no matches HVR2 or FGS
Mom's brother: LEWTER: Ysearch FYFDA;  R-U106, L48+ (R1b1b2a1a*)
Mom's brother: mitosearch FYFDA, U5b2; 1 exac
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2009, 03:02:03 PM »

I've been doing some Y Search pulls on haplogroup as well as looking at some of the public results from various FTDNA projects.   Here are the additional MDKA's/haplotypes I've found that show up as R1b1b2a1b5 (with no "b" on the end) and list Wales as an origin....
Here is an updated list that are theoretically confirmed, in other words they have R1b1b2a1b5 as their haplogroup in either Ysearch or FTDNA.  Looks like 22 in all.
Mike, here's new info for you:

NBCVS   ?????   Dicks                    Kit number is 85661
?????   8551   Roderick/Rhydderch  Y-search is CXPPP
?????   137075   Jones                    Y search is SN9NZ
?????   93906   Pugh                    Does not have Y-search account
UYZCQ   62242   Sloop                    true surname is unknown.
?????   82932   Wynne                    Does not have Y-search account
Thanks.
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susanrosine
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« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2009, 03:26:49 PM »

The Wales Cymru DNA project (at FTDNA) is now waiting for 21 Deep Clade Results for men who have been predicted to be R1b1b2. To be precise, some of them have already done some deep clade testing, so for some of them it will just be testing for newer SNPs. A few have actually already tested positive/derived for L21, but now are testing for M222 to confirm they are really L21*.

Out of these 21 men, I believe one will turn out to be the U106 type of R1b1b2.

Note:  There are actually more than 21 men doing the testing, however I am NOT counting those who are in the Wales project, but have NOT actually traced their line back to Wales.

Susan

Logged

Dad: JAMES:  Ysearch QSCQ3;  R-P312, L21+ (R1b1b2a1b5*)
Dad: mitosearch QSCQ3; T1a; no matches HVR2 or FGS
Mom's brother: LEWTER: Ysearch FYFDA;  R-U106, L48+ (R1b1b2a1a*)
Mom's brother: mitosearch FYFDA, U5b2; 1 exac
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2009, 04:33:47 PM »

The Wales Cymru DNA project (at FTDNA) is now waiting for 21 Deep Clade Results for men who have been predicted to be R1b1b2.   .....
Wow, makes me proud to be a Welsh, Walsh or whatever I am.
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« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2009, 07:31:06 PM »

The Wales Cymru DNA project (at FTDNA) is now waiting for 21 Deep Clade Results for men who have been predicted to be R1b1b2. To be precise, some of them have already done some deep clade testing, so for some of them it will just be testing for newer SNPs. A few have actually already tested positive/derived for L21, but now are testing for M222 to confirm they are really L21*.

Out of these 21 men, I believe one will turn out to be the U106 type of R1b1b2.

Note:  There are actually more than 21 men doing the testing, however I am NOT counting those who are in the Wales project, but have NOT actually traced their line back to Wales.

Susan



I hope those who are R-L21* will join the R-L21 Plus Project. Thus far we have far too few Welshmen, when I am pretty sure Wales is an L21 hotspot.
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susanrosine
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« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2009, 07:43:18 PM »

I hope those who are R-L21* will join the R-L21 Plus Project. Thus far we have far too few Welshmen, when I am pretty sure Wales is an L21 hotspot.

I will give the men who turn out to be R-L21* the info to join your project!
Logged

Dad: JAMES:  Ysearch QSCQ3;  R-P312, L21+ (R1b1b2a1b5*)
Dad: mitosearch QSCQ3; T1a; no matches HVR2 or FGS
Mom's brother: LEWTER: Ysearch FYFDA;  R-U106, L48+ (R1b1b2a1a*)
Mom's brother: mitosearch FYFDA, U5b2; 1 exac
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« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2009, 12:00:53 PM »

Arthur James is now R-L21*. Kit N48707

Harold Joseph Dicks has been confirmed to be R-L21*. Kit 85661.  He had not previously tested the SNPs downstream from L21, but now they have been tested and he is negative for all.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/WalesDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults
Logged

Dad: JAMES:  Ysearch QSCQ3;  R-P312, L21+ (R1b1b2a1b5*)
Dad: mitosearch QSCQ3; T1a; no matches HVR2 or FGS
Mom's brother: LEWTER: Ysearch FYFDA;  R-U106, L48+ (R1b1b2a1a*)
Mom's brother: mitosearch FYFDA, U5b2; 1 exac
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