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rms2
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« on: April 22, 2009, 08:12:44 AM »

I found a third Swiss R-L21* in YSearch this morning: Kastler, YSearch KG5TR. His ancestor came from Wahlern, southwest of Bern.

I have invited him to join the R-L21 Plus Project. Hopefully, he will.
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« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2009, 11:41:54 PM »

Is Kasteler confirmed R-L21*?   I see his Ysearch, KG5TR, but I don't see a kit # or anything.   Ysearch shows his haplogroup as R1b1b2 (tested).   I couldn't find him on 23 and me's L21+ list.   Was he deep clade tested with somebody else?
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rms2
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« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2009, 10:00:16 AM »

Is Kasteler confirmed R-L21*?   I see his Ysearch, KG5TR, but I don't see a kit # or anything.   Ysearch shows his haplogroup as R1b1b2 (tested).   I couldn't find him on 23 and me's L21+ list.   Was he deep clade tested with somebody else?


He tested L21+ with FTDNA but somehow I must have scared him off. He had his haplogroup listed in YSearch as R1b1b2a1b5 but changed it after about my second email to him. Needless to say, he never joined the project.
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« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2009, 12:56:48 PM »

Okay.   I'll count him as L21* tested.
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rms2
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« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2009, 12:45:19 AM »

I was poking around in the Haplotree/My Matches pages this evening and found that thus far at least four Swiss are L21+. Two of them are already in the project, so that leaves at least two outside the fold. I emailed FTDNA and asked them to email our lost sheep and invite them to join. Hopefully we'll get a positive response.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2009, 12:45:45 AM by rms2 » Logged

OConnor
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« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2009, 07:55:06 PM »

How could L21 get into Switzerland?

Any L21 in the Po Valley, Italy?
It borders with Switzerland.
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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GoldenHind
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« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2009, 08:24:07 PM »

How could L21 get into Switzerland?

Via the Aberdeen/Zurich steamship line.
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rms2
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« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2009, 04:18:32 PM »

How could L21 get into Switzerland?

Any L21 in the Po Valley, Italy?
It borders with Switzerland.

It's pretty well represented in southern Germany, and there is at least one Italian R-L21 (argiedude's ancestor) near Como in far Northern Italy.

Switzerland was home to a number of ancient Celtic tribes.

I'm wondering how L21 got into the British Isles.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2009, 04:19:15 PM by rms2 » Logged

OConnor
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« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2009, 09:29:13 PM »

The Po Valley in northern Italy borders Switzerland and France.
Could L-21 have come into Italy with one of the invasions below?

....or perhaps L-21 was already on the south side of the Alps pre-5th century BC.?

 As the 5th century BC dawned, a Celtic horde swarmed through the easy passes of the Western Alps and conquered most of the Po Valley, apart Veneto which had its inhabitants, the Venetics likely of a distinct stock and in time already influenced by both Etruscans and Greeks.

The Po Valley for a time hosted the capital of the Western Roman Empire, in Mediolanum from 286 to 403, and then in Ravenna till the end.

It was attacked in the 3rd century by Germanic tribes bursting out from the Alps and sacked two centuries later by Attila the Hun, till its final conquest first by Odoacer, then at the hands of the Ostrogoths of king Theoderic the Great in the final years of the 5th century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Po_Valley
(Ancient history)
« Last Edit: December 20, 2009, 09:30:44 PM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2009, 10:45:57 PM »

The Po Valley in northern Italy borders Switzerland and France.
Could L-21 have come into Italy with one of the invasions below?
....or perhaps L-21 was already on the south side of the Alps pre-5th century BC.?
...
Perhaps all of the above.   The Italic languages are closely related to Celtic languages so PIE theorists consider there was a pre-Celtic, pre-Italic Indo-European language.  I suggest reading Jean M's nicely done piece of research at http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/peoplingeurope.shtml
She discusses and shows a map of the "Proto-Italic-Celtic trail".  Was L21+ a part of this group of people?  Could be.  If we believe some of the latest TMRCA estimates for L21+ as about 3700 ybp, that's probably a little too late for the Italo-Celtic split.   However, a few L21+ guys might have been straggling along with some P312*, U152+ and pre-P312 R1b1b2 guys.  Some could have wondered into Italy.
As you have noted, Celtic tribes have invaded Italy long after the Italo-Celtic split.  L21+ may have and probably did squeak in on several occasions.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2009, 10:46:40 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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OConnor
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« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2009, 11:40:00 PM »

After the Ostrogoths, another Germanic people, the LOMBARDS, arrived in Italy--in 568; their control soon spread from the north to Tuscany and Umbria, although much of southern and eastern Italy remained in Byzantine hands.

The success of the Lombards, however, was temporary. Under the pretense of restoring to the papacy its lost territories, Pope Stephen II (r. 752-57) invited the FRANKS, still another Germanic tribe, to invade Italy. In 774 the Franks expelled the Lombard rulers; Lombard territory passed into the hands of the Frankish ruler CHARLEMAGNE, who was crowned emperor in Rome on Dec. 25, 800.

600AD: The Franks invaded and subdued the indigenous tribes of Switzerland converting many Swiss Pagan tribes to Christianity. A series of monasteries are built across Switzerland by the Franks for the purpose of spreading Christianity.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

I'm going to guess that some Franks were L-21+

Charlemagne (I wonder what haplo-group he was?)
Charles the Great: AD 768-814
http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=aa20
« Last Edit: December 22, 2009, 07:14:49 PM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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vtilroe
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« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2009, 01:09:30 AM »

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

I'm going to guess that some Franks were L-21+

Charlemagne (I wonder what haplo-group he was?)
Charles the Great: AD 768-814
http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=aa20

Just a few weeks ago, I was informed of a development that may imply that Charlemagne was U106+, perhaps L48+.  Nothing is reliably confirmed yet, however.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2009, 01:10:11 AM by vtilroe » Logged

YSearch & MitoSearch: 2GXWW


yDNA: R-U106*


mtDNA: U5a1a1 (Genbank# GQ368895)


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rms2
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« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2009, 11:20:01 AM »

Just a few weeks ago, I was informed of a development that may imply that Charlemagne was U106+, perhaps L48+.  Nothing is reliably confirmed yet, however.

That would not surprise me at all. A lot was made of Frisians and their apparent connection to U106 and its subclades, but it is pretty well known that the Dutch language is actually a descendant of Low Franconian and of the language of the Salian Franks.

There were a lot of Franks in the Low Countries, and it seems the Netherlands is a U106 hotspot. So Karl der Gross as an L48+ is no surprise.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2009, 08:16:28 PM »

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

I'm going to guess that some Franks were L-21+

Charlemagne (I wonder what haplo-group he was?)
Charles the Great: AD 768-814
http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=aa20

Just a few weeks ago, I was informed of a development that may imply that Charlemagne was U106+, perhaps L48+.  Nothing is reliably confirmed yet, however.
I wouldn't be a bit surprised if Charlemagne was some variety of R1b, but how in the world could one determine that he was U106 or L48? I have seen the U106 enthusiasts rush forward to contend any ancient Germanic R1b is U106 because the STRs are so similar to modern U106 examples, which ignores the fact that modern U106 is generally not predictable from STRs (in the absence of DYS492).
 
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« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2009, 08:42:02 PM »

Speaking of enthusiasts for various R1b subclades, I just read this on another forum, by someone who just happens to be U152:

"U-152 is probably the group for the German House of Windsor in London, and also for the "original" British Celts, and also the Vikings and Normans."

I wonder where he could have got that idea?
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Jdean
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« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2009, 08:44:18 PM »

Speaking of enthusiasts for various R1b subclades, I just read this on another forum, by someone who just happens to be U152:

"U-152 is probably the group for the German House of Windsor in London, and also for the "original" British Celts, and also the Vikings and Normans."

I wonder where he could have got that idea?


No I'm stumped any clues?
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rms2
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« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2009, 08:55:50 PM »

Speaking of enthusiasts for various R1b subclades, I just read this on another forum, by someone who just happens to be U152:

"U-152 is probably the group for the German House of Windsor in London, and also for the "original" British Celts, and also the Vikings and Normans."

I wonder where he could have got that idea?


I think Wolverine and the other X-Men were also U152+.

But Underdog was probably L21+ (oh, wait, he's a dog).
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2009, 09:38:53 PM »

Speaking of enthusiasts for various R1b subclades, I just read this on another forum, by someone who just happens to be U152:

"U-152 is probably the group for the German House of Windsor in London, and also for the "original" British Celts, and also the Vikings and Normans."

I wonder where he could have got that idea?


I know where you saw that, lol. I think it was told to a newbie too.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


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vtilroe
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« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2009, 11:52:54 PM »

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

I'm going to guess that some Franks were L-21+

Charlemagne (I wonder what haplo-group he was?)
Charles the Great: AD 768-814
http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=aa20

Just a few weeks ago, I was informed of a development that may imply that Charlemagne was U106+, perhaps L48+.  Nothing is reliably confirmed yet, however.
I wouldn't be a bit surprised if Charlemagne was some variety of R1b, but how in the world could one determine that he was U106 or L48? I have seen the U106 enthusiasts rush forward to contend any ancient Germanic R1b is U106 because the STRs are so similar to modern U106 examples, which ignores the fact that modern U106 is generally not predictable from STRs (in the absence of DYS492).
 
Basically, someone found evidence that alleges direct descendency from Floris III Count of Holland [who was in turn a presumed (but unconfirmed) direct descendant of Charles Martel (Charles the Hammer - Charlemagne's grandfather)], has been confirmed U106+, and the possibility of an NPE appears unlikely - up to the 13th century, at least.  An L48 test is still pending.  But this is off-topic for Swiss L21, of course.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2009, 11:55:46 PM by vtilroe » Logged

YSearch & MitoSearch: 2GXWW


yDNA: R-U106*


mtDNA: U5a1a1 (Genbank# GQ368895)


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GoldenHind
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« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2009, 05:20:10 PM »

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

I'm going to guess that some Franks were L-21+

Charlemagne (I wonder what haplo-group he was?)
Charles the Great: AD 768-814
http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=aa20

Just a few weeks ago, I was informed of a development that may imply that Charlemagne was U106+, perhaps L48+.  Nothing is reliably confirmed yet, however.
I wouldn't be a bit surprised if Charlemagne was some variety of R1b, but how in the world could one determine that he was U106 or L48? I have seen the U106 enthusiasts rush forward to contend any ancient Germanic R1b is U106 because the STRs are so similar to modern U106 examples, which ignores the fact that modern U106 is generally not predictable from STRs (in the absence of DYS492).
 
Basically, someone found evidence that alleges direct descendency from Floris III Count of Holland [who was in turn a presumed (but unconfirmed) direct descendant of Charles Martel (Charles the Hammer - Charlemagne's grandfather)], has been confirmed U106+, and the possibility of an NPE appears unlikely - up to the 13th century, at least.  An L48 test is still pending.  But this is off-topic for Swiss L21, of course.
Thanks, I assumed it was ancient DNA.
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« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2010, 08:07:56 PM »

We have a new Swiss R-L21 this evening: Gerber, kit E4785, Ysearch GVU3M. He's a current Swiss citizen and was already a member of the R-P312 and Subclades Project.

Gerber's y-dna ancestor came from Bern.

Now I'm trying to get Gerber to join the R-L21 Plus Project.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2010, 08:08:28 PM by rms2 » Logged

NealtheRed
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« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2010, 09:09:32 PM »

Rich, I was starting to wonder about Swiss results!

The Bern canton is Swiss-German speaking (Alemannic), I believe.
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« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2010, 11:17:12 PM »

We have a new Swiss R-L21 this evening: Gerber, kit E4785, Ysearch GVU3M. He's a current Swiss citizen and was already a member of the R-P312 and Subclades Project.
Gerber's y-dna ancestor came from Bern.
Now I'm trying to get Gerber to join the R-L21 Plus Project.
Great find, Rich.    This is interesting.

What is referred to as Irish Type IV/Cont is Ken Nordtvedt's 37 marker evaluation that gave him this STR: 391=10 385=12,15 426=13 464=15,15,16,18. 

I evaluated 67 markers for R-L21* folks and found this common signature that usually overlay's Ken's.  The slower moving signature I found is 426=13 GataH4=10 460=10 406s1=11. Because of the 426 and H4 values I called it R-L21-1310 and when they have 385=12,15 also I called it R-L21-1310-T4 in my spreadsheet (a different view of Ken's Type IV.)

Gerber doesn't have 460=10 but he has 426=13 406s1=11 GataH4=10. He has 385=11,15 rather than 12,15.  He also has 520=21 which a lot of the T4 guys seem to have. Gerber had 464d=18 but is off on the first 3 of 464.

Gerber looks like he is on the fringes of Irish Type IV or perhaps he is an just an early branch.   Does anyone know anything about the surname history and origins or family history?
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« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2010, 12:17:37 AM »

Do you think the Franks could have spread some R-L21 to Switzerland?
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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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rms2
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« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2010, 07:17:58 AM »


Great find, Rich.    This is interesting.

What is referred to as Irish Type IV/Cont is Ken Nordtvedt's 37 marker evaluation that gave him this STR: 391=10 385=12,15 426=13 464=15,15,16,18. 

I evaluated 67 markers for R-L21* folks and found this common signature that usually overlay's Ken's.  The slower moving signature I found is 426=13 GataH4=10 460=10 406s1=11. Because of the 426 and H4 values I called it R-L21-1310 and when they have 385=12,15 also I called it R-L21-1310-T4 in my spreadsheet (a different view of Ken's Type IV.)

Gerber doesn't have 460=10 but he has 426=13 406s1=11 GataH4=10. He has 385=11,15 rather than 12,15.  He also has 520=21 which a lot of the T4 guys seem to have. Gerber had 464d=18 but is off on the first 3 of 464.

Gerber looks like he is on the fringes of Irish Type IV or perhaps he is an just an early branch.   Does anyone know anything about the surname history and origins or family history?

Mike, I'm not sure I understand the reference to this Irish Type IV thing, since Gerber is off its key elements. He has 391=11, not 10; 385a=11, not 12; and 464c=17, not 16. In other words, he is significantly off it, not just in one or two places.

Gerber has no close matches with British or Irish surnames beyond 12 markers. As a matter of fact, most of his 12-marker matches are with a bunch of guys with the decidedly French surname of Broussard. At 67 markers, the closest matches I could find for him were a gd of 15 away.

I have not heard from Gerber yet, but the surname is German.

I know you were just making an interesting haplotype comparison or perhaps even looking for an early continental origin for an Irish group, but I cringe every time I see "Irish Type This" or "Scottish Modal That" used in connection with a new continental R-L21, especially if the continental R-L21 in question doesn't really match that haplotype.

The mere mention of such modal haplotypes is like the kiss of death. It will be seized on by someone at dna-forums or elsewhere (like our Yahoo group) to bolster the "Wild Geese", out-of-the-Isles argument.

It won't really matter that Gerber's haplotype isn't "Irish Type IV"; the damage is done by the mere mention of his haplotype in connection with that one.

I wish Ken Nordtvedt had not given his modals such geographically restricted names. Does the "/Cont" part of the title indicate that he also found it on the European Continent?

I was on the fringes of his "Frisian" Modal, which is why almost everyone was surprised (including Dr. Jim Wilson) when I came back S21- (U106-).

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