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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #25 on: May 12, 2010, 10:30:52 AM »

I know you were just making an interesting haplotype comparison or perhaps even looking for an early continental origin for an Irish group, but I cringe every time I see "Irish Type This" or "Scottish Modal That" used in connection with a new continental R-L21, especially if the continental R-L21 in question doesn't really match that haplotype.

The mere mention of such modal haplotypes is like the kiss of death. It will be seized on by someone at dna-forums or elsewhere (like our Yahoo group) to bolster the "Wild Geese", out-of-the-Isles argument.

It won't really matter that Gerber's haplotype isn't "Irish Type IV"; the damage is done by the mere mention of his haplotype in connection with that one.

I wish Ken Nordtvedt had not given his modals such geographically restricted names. Does the "/Cont" part of the title indicate that he also found it on the European Continent?

I was on the fringes of his "Frisian" Modal, which is why almost everyone was surprised (including Dr. Jim Wilson) when I came back S21- (U106-).
In terms of the labels for the modal haplotypes that are historically used, I agree with you 100%.  In fact, in the R-L21* spreadsheet I took great pains to label things that might be deep ancestral varieties with neutral (but also boring) labels like R-L21-1310.

I do think Ken Nordtvedt has provided a great service in identifying the R1b set of clusters that he did.  They have been right on.. at least what I've seen of the ones that pertain to R-L21 and R-P312.

Ignore any comments about I what said about Irish Type IV similarities and let's look at Gerber.  I'm only looking at confirmed R-L21* folks to eliminate the noise.  I'm only looking at 67 marker length Ht's so as to reduce coincident "false" matches.  Here's what I see:

There are no close GD's to Gerber.  Closest are in the 54/55 of 67 so no one I can see is related within the last 1000 years... which actually is a good thing because if Gerber has been in Switzerland along time you'd expect decent matches only to come from there.

Here are his off-modals (from WAMH) in order of slowest to faster. (The number in parenthesis is the "slow" ranking among FTDNA's first 67.)
426=13 (3rd) 487=14(26th) 406s1=11(35th) 413a=25(37th) 413b=25(38th) GataH4=10(39th) 385b=15(42nd) 520=21(44th) 390=25 (47th).

There are off-modals at some of the fast moving markers as well but no more than +1 or -1 so I almost consider that as noise.

This stuff is all easy to see in the off-modal columns of the spreadsheet I post.

When I select (autofilter in Excel) on 487=14 across all the R-L21* people I do see a number with 406s1=11 also but after that the commonalities get real scarce except at the faster moving markers.  I tried the same at some of the other slow to medium speed markers but don't get too much.

However, when I anchor 426=13 in the spreadsheet, this does show up as a pattern that seven other R-L21*  people have in common with Gerber:
426=13 406s1>=11 GataH4=10 385b=15 520=21 464d=18 with some 576=17

The last 3 or 4 are faster moving, etc. etc. so it is easy to  them but the first three of the above signature are very slow to medium speed.  I do think this STR signature is worth noting and may indicate a deep ancestral (therefore don't expect close GD's) relationship.  This is NOT a genealogical timeframe cluster by any means.  It is just a speculative variety.

The seven R-L21* confirmed 67 Ht length people that share the signature above with Gerber have some other commonalities that Gerber doesn't have.
The all have 385a=12 460=10 and all but one has 391=10.  By the way, 460 is the 52nd slowest marker and 391 the 46th so they are not as stable as 426, GataH4 and 406s1 (at least according to Leo Little.)

The coincidence is that those seven I had assigned to R-L21-1310-T4.  This signature appears to overlap Ken's STR signature that I think he named "XXXX Type IV/YYYY".  Good, bad, or ugly? ...  I agree that those old modal labels aren't good but they are there and they are used.  Instead, do you want to push the "neutral" labeling system I use?  I'm all for it, but I don't think anyone else knows what I'm talking about it.  It's just some arcane details in a memory choking spreadsheet.  I don't have time to promote a new labeling system and I'm definitely not the authority with credibility to do so.  Eventually these varieties and clusters will be obsoleted by SNP's that flag them anyway.... or least they should be.

In terms of what I was trying to say about Gerber...  In summary, I think he may be an early branch off of the speculative variety - so I'd consider him "pre" R-L21-1310-T4.  I could be wrong which is why I use the word speculative.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2010, 12:43:00 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #26 on: May 12, 2010, 10:38:49 AM »

I wish Ken Nordtvedt had not given his modals such geographically restricted names. Does the "/Cont" part of the title indicate that he also found it on the European Continent?
Yes, "Cont" stood for "Continental."  I've read Rootsweb postings where some speculate Normans* may have brought this along with them.  

Here is an idea for you in the search for continental L21's....   Use the markers that Ken came up with and look for 37 length haplotypes that match up.  According to some Rootsweb stuff from him and others, I think they see a lot of continental folks when they do the same.   It does appear to be L21+.  I don't see any discussion about a parallel "cluster" in U106 or P312*.

EDIT: * I'm not sure speculation about being Norman means that much.  Almost everyone speculates that no matter what they are.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2010, 12:40:24 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #27 on: May 12, 2010, 10:47:46 AM »

.....
However, when I anchor 426=13 in the spreadsheet, this does show up as a pattern that seven other R-L21*  people have in common with Gerber:
426=13 406s1>=11 GataH4=10 385b=15 520=21 464d=18 with some 576=17
.....
The seven R-L21* confirmed 67 Ht length people that share the signature above with Gerber have some other commonalities that Gerber doesn't have.
The all have 385a=12 460=10 and all but one has 391=10.  By the way, 460 is the 52nd slowest marker and 391 the 46th so they are not as stable as 426, GataH4 and 406s1 (at least according to Leo Little.)

The coincidence is that those seven I had assigned to R-L21-1310-T4.  ...

BTW, here are the other seven.  What does a Swiss guy have in common with these guys?  I'm no surname expert so I don't of any patterns here but the genetic one I described.

Moses Fletcher, b.c.1735, Stafford Co., Virginia, USA
Edward Foley, b.c.1820; d.c.1862
Kennedy
Peter Leonard, b.1868, Co. Sligo, Ireland
William O'Shea, b.c.1807, Killenaule, Co. Tipperary, Ireland
William Smute, b.1596, England
Winn, b. Woburn, Massachusetts, USA (?Wales, Gwynedd)

Isn't Switzerland a hotspot for R-U152?   Any chance these guys hung out with the bulk of the R-U152 guys?
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #28 on: May 12, 2010, 02:10:33 PM »


EDIT: * I'm not sure speculation about being Norman means that much.  Almost everyone speculates that no matter what they are.

Very, very true. I can't count the number of times where I read people claiming they have "Norman" DNA.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2010, 05:34:13 PM »

Seems to me L21 has a decent showing in and adjacent to Switzerland given what seems like a low amount to testing in that area since L21 became available.
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OConnor
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« Reply #30 on: May 12, 2010, 06:50:55 PM »

I don't know about the Normans, but the Franks were there.
Switzerland was split in two.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2010, 06:52:20 PM by OConnor » Logged

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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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rms2
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« Reply #31 on: May 12, 2010, 07:21:12 PM »

.....
However, when I anchor 426=13 in the spreadsheet, this does show up as a pattern that seven other R-L21*  people have in common with Gerber:
426=13 406s1>=11 GataH4=10 385b=15 520=21 464d=18 with some 576=17
.....
The seven R-L21* confirmed 67 Ht length people that share the signature above with Gerber have some other commonalities that Gerber doesn't have.
The all have 385a=12 460=10 and all but one has 391=10.  By the way, 460 is the 52nd slowest marker and 391 the 46th so they are not as stable as 426, GataH4 and 406s1 (at least according to Leo Little.)

The coincidence is that those seven I had assigned to R-L21-1310-T4.  ...

BTW, here are the other seven.  What does a Swiss guy have in common with these guys?  I'm no surname expert so I don't of any patterns here but the genetic one I described.

Moses Fletcher, b.c.1735, Stafford Co., Virginia, USA
Edward Foley, b.c.1820; d.c.1862
Kennedy
Peter Leonard, b.1868, Co. Sligo, Ireland
William O'Shea, b.c.1807, Killenaule, Co. Tipperary, Ireland
William Smute, b.1596, England
Winn, b. Woburn, Massachusetts, USA (?Wales, Gwynedd)

Isn't Switzerland a hotspot for R-U152?   Any chance these guys hung out with the bulk of the R-U152 guys?

Honestly, given the differences, I don't think there is necessarily a connection between Gerber and those other men except perhaps a very very distant one that will be all but impossible to detect.
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« Reply #32 on: May 13, 2010, 12:15:37 AM »

Honestly, given the differences, I don't think there is necessarily a connection between Gerber and those other men except perhaps a very very distant one that will be all but impossible to detect.
We would expect a very distant relationship in the case of a non-modern era relationship between people in Ireland and Scotland... if it is indeed a relationship.  I don't know, but the odds of at least the first three slower moving off-modal markers lining up like this in a "non-relationship" doesn't seem that likely either, especially since we are talking within the scope of R-L21* (which eliminates a lot of noise)

426=13 406s1>=11 GataH4=10 385b=15 520=21 464d=18 with some 576=17

426 only mutates once every 11,000 generations. 406s1 mutates once every 1,500 generations. GataH4 every 480 generations.   426 is slow enough it is not much more unstable that some of the so-called SNP's out there.  

This is the nature of a deep ancestral variety.  It is not the same thing as a genealogical cluster.  It is not iron-clad but it's all we have until we get another few million more base pairs of the Y chromosome "walked".. years from now.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2010, 12:17:14 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #33 on: May 13, 2010, 07:04:52 AM »

Since the Amesbury Archer apparently or probably came from somewhere in or near the Alps, perhaps this is something that goes back to an Alpine Beaker Folk connection.

What happens if one does not eliminate the noise? If that combination of values shows up in R1b1b2 outside of L21, then it could have two sources: 1) an actual genetic relationship of some kind, and 2) accidental convergence.
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« Reply #34 on: May 13, 2010, 08:42:42 AM »

Since the Amesbury Archer apparently or probably came from somewhere in or near the Alps, perhaps this is something that goes back to an Alpine Beaker Folk connection.

What happens if one does not eliminate the noise? If that combination of values shows up in R1b1b2 outside of L21, then it could have two sources: 1) an actual genetic relationship of some kind, and 2) accidental convergence.
Yes.  The more noise that can be eliminated the better.  Vince V is no doubt correct in the fact that we are needing much more extensive SNP discovery.  Without it, because of millions of people that are R-L21* there is always a chance of coincidence.    In this case the GD's are such that if TMRCA's are to be believed Gerber's potential relationship with these other guys might be more like 0 AD, much later than the Beakers.     La Tene was supposed to have reached Ireland, right?    

I have to admit this is a lot more than just a little speculation so I'm a bit over  the top although I do think a good slow combination of STR's could mean something.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2010, 08:44:11 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #35 on: May 13, 2010, 03:33:19 PM »

Mike

Irish la tene metalwork (the only iron age material identified in Ireland) has been put down to contacts both with Britain and direct with The gaulish  areas of France, the Rhineland and Switzerland in the period from 300BC to 100AD and beyond.  The continental influences tend to be from the earlier part of the period. In Ireland the exotic metalwork tends to be found among othrwis native traditions of burial, ritual, sellement, pottery (or lack of it) etc so few archaeolgists are comfortable with the idea of anything more than elites coming in from Britain and Gaul and many simply see it as trade. 
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OConnor
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« Reply #36 on: May 13, 2010, 04:51:41 PM »

Well I like to think about L21 and the Swiss Celts.

But there has possibly been L21 influence into Switzerland since that time.

"Modern Swiss history is regarded as starting in 1291, but people had already been living in the region for thousands of years. The first inhabitants were Celtic tribes, including the Helvetii of the Jura and the Mittelland plain and the Rhaetians near Graub√ľnden. Their homelands were invaded firstly by the Romans, who had gained a foothold by 58 BC under Julius Caesar and established Aventicum (now Avenches) as their capital. Then, Germanic Alemanni tribes arrived to drive out the Romans by AD 400.

The Alemanni groups settled in eastern Switzerland and were later joined by another Germanic tribe, the Burgundians, in the western part of the country. The latter adopted Christianity and the Latin language, laying the seeds for the division between French- and German-speaking Switzerland. The Franks conquered both tribes in the 6th century, but the two areas were torn apart again when Charlemagne's empire was partitioned in 870.
http://www.lonelyplanet.com/switzerland/history


"In 1798 Switzerland was completely overrun by the French and became the Helvetic Republic."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland_in_the_Napoleonic_era

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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #37 on: May 13, 2010, 05:35:46 PM »

Mike

One other thing I can't help feeling is that mrca estimates for matches on ftdna home pages seem too recent to easily explain the variety of surname geographical origins. Not only are they clearly presurname but there is also often no explanation for the distribution withn a historical time frame.  That tends to make people look for explanations in mobile groups like Vikings and Normans etc but this rarely looks convincing. This makes me wonder if the ftdna mrca date estimates for matches is not underestimating age.   
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OConnor
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« Reply #38 on: May 13, 2010, 05:56:17 PM »

Well the Franks were out of France/Belgium and ruled much, if not all of Europe and northern Italy.

I believe to refer to them as a mobile group is a mistake. I really suspect they increased L-21's distribution. Maybe not all.

I'd be willing to bet a Swiss Franc

« Last Edit: May 13, 2010, 05:58:26 PM by OConnor » Logged

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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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« Reply #39 on: May 19, 2010, 07:57:37 PM »

BTW, Gerber joined the R-L21 Plus Project.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #40 on: May 19, 2010, 11:07:21 PM »

Mike

One other thing I can't help feeling is that mrca estimates for matches on ftdna home pages seem too recent to easily explain the variety of surname geographical origins. Not only are they clearly presurname but there is also often no explanation for the distribution withn a historical time frame.  That tends to make people look for explanations in mobile groups like Vikings and Normans etc but this rarely looks convincing. This makes me wonder if the ftdna mrca date estimates for matches is not underestimating age.   
When I was speaking of the TMRCA's for the Swiss L-21* and the identified R-L21-1310-T4 variety that was really a general reference to a non-genealogical timeframe Genetic Distance value, definitely in the pre-surname era.

I'm not a big proponent of all the TMRCA calculations that are out there.  The ranges for most are so wide as they are only useful, in my opinion, from a general or relative point of view for remote timeframes.  I think that Vince V has said that these can easily be off as much as 30% either way.  My own gut feeling is that when you get down to looking at just a handful of people and genealogical timeframes the range is larger than that.   I can tell by looking at FTDNA's TMRCA's for my closest matches.  Without going into a lot of detail, it's next to impossible for most of my close matches to be within the 90% confidence interval.  Of course, I said "next" to impossible.  My understanding understanding of migrations could be incomplete.  It's like the old archeological adage - "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."
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« Reply #41 on: May 19, 2010, 11:15:19 PM »

Mike

Irish la tene metalwork (the only iron age material identified in Ireland) has been put down to contacts both with Britain and direct with The gaulish  areas of France, the Rhineland and Switzerland in the period from 300BC to 100AD and beyond.  The continental influences tend to be from the earlier part of the period. In Ireland the exotic metalwork tends to be found among othrwis native traditions of burial, ritual, sellement, pottery (or lack of it) etc so few archaeolgists are comfortable with the idea of anything more than elites coming in from Britain and Gaul and many simply see it as trade.  
I think the whole Indo-European et al (from the beginning thru to the Celts and Latins) expansion is underestimated except for the latter ages, which is Germanic culture dominated (I include Anglo here).

Some people probably carried some of the influence of the Hallstatt cultures, then the La Tene cultures a long way, some of which seems to have reached the Isles and may have moved on in stages through out them.

Those people may have been elite, but in a pre-monotheistic/pre-moralistic world, elites may have had disproportionate influence on the paternal lineages.  
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« Reply #42 on: May 20, 2010, 07:21:39 AM »

Mike

One other thing I can't help feeling is that mrca estimates for matches on ftdna home pages seem too recent to easily explain the variety of surname geographical origins. Not only are they clearly presurname but there is also often no explanation for the distribution withn a historical time frame.  That tends to make people look for explanations in mobile groups like Vikings and Normans etc but this rarely looks convincing. This makes me wonder if the ftdna mrca date estimates for matches is not underestimating age.   
When I was speaking of the TMRCA's for the Swiss L-21* and the identified R-L21-1310-T4 variety that was really a general reference to a non-genealogical timeframe Genetic Distance value, definitely in the pre-surname era.

I'm not a big proponent of all the TMRCA calculations that are out there.  The ranges for most are so wide as they are only useful, in my opinion, from a general or relative point of view for remote timeframes.  I think that Vince V has said that these can easily be off as much as 30% either way.  My own gut feeling is that when you get down to looking at just a handful of people and genealogical timeframes the range is larger than that.   I can tell by looking at FTDNA's TMRCA's for my closest matches.  Without going into a lot of detail, it's next to impossible for most of my close matches to be within the 90% confidence interval.  Of course, I said "next" to impossible.  My understanding understanding of migrations could be incomplete.  It's like the old archeological adage - "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

There is another Swiss guy, Meier, Ysearch 63A4T, who has 385=11/15, 426=13, and 464d=18 like Gerber. He only has a 37-marker haplotype.

I've been thinking of trying to recruit him.

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« Reply #43 on: May 20, 2010, 03:09:13 PM »

Sounds a good idea to me.  Seems to me that  Switzerland must have a decent enough amount of L21.  I think that the decent showing of L21 if 4 have already turned up and this guy would be no. 5.  There is also yet another guy just over the Swiss-Italian border.  That seems a lot for a small country that is not exactly on the main sea routes to America.  Compare it to other small countries like Belgium where there is very little.  Seems to me that there is likely a lot of L21 there and the head start U152 got may be exaggerating the dominance of the latter. `i make it 10 Swiss on the U152 project map. 
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« Reply #44 on: May 20, 2010, 09:33:22 PM »

Sounds a good idea to me.  Seems to me that  Switzerland must have a decent enough amount of L21.  I think that the decent showing of L21 if 4 have already turned up and this guy would be no. 5.  There is also yet another guy just over the Swiss-Italian border.  That seems a lot for a small country that is not exactly on the main sea routes to America.  Compare it to other small countries like Belgium where there is very little.  Seems to me that there is likely a lot of L21 there and the head start U152 got may be exaggerating the dominance of the latter. `i make it 10 Swiss on the U152 project map. 

Okay, I sent Meier a recruitment email. Hopefully, he'll go for it and get an L21+ result.
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« Reply #45 on: May 22, 2010, 01:57:56 PM »

I heard from Meier, or rather, from his sister, who is interested in L21 testing. Now I'm just waiting for her to join his kit to the R-L21 Plus Project.

I hope those marker values mean something and aren't merely the product of convergence.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2010, 01:58:19 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #46 on: May 25, 2010, 03:48:29 PM »

I found this guy in the German DNA project.  He has 67 markers but no deep clade testing.  He has an 11-13 Combo signature so probably he is L21.  I'll try to get him to test and join.

77527   Christian Showalter, b.c. 1799, Zurich, Switzerland   695S2

He is curiously close on a number of unusual markers to a Fletcher from England in the 11-13 Combo project but still a large GD away.


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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
rms2
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« Reply #47 on: May 25, 2010, 06:53:14 PM »

I found this guy in the German DNA project.  He has 67 markers but no deep clade testing.  He has an 11-13 Combo signature so probably he is L21.  I'll try to get him to test and join.

77527   Christian Showalter, b.c. 1799, Zurich, Switzerland   695S2

He is curiously close on a number of unusual markers to a Fletcher from England in the 11-13 Combo project but still a large GD away.

Outstanding find!

I didn't mean to steal your thunder, but I just emailed him via Ysearch (695S2) and offered him a free L21 test on us.
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« Reply #48 on: May 26, 2010, 10:53:25 AM »

I found this guy in the German DNA project.  He has 67 markers but no deep clade testing.  He has an 11-13 Combo signature so probably he is L21.  I'll try to get him to test and join.

77527   Christian Showalter, b.c. 1799, Zurich, Switzerland   695S2

He is curiously close on a number of unusual markers to a Fletcher from England in the 11-13 Combo project but still a large GD away.

Outstanding find!

I didn't mean to steal your thunder, but I just emailed him via Ysearch (695S2) and offered him a free L21 test on us.
Great work.  Close the deal!  I'll let you know if I get any response.
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« Reply #49 on: May 26, 2010, 04:52:54 PM »

Notice that all the R1b1b2 clade hits on the project maps are from the same northern portion of Switzerland.  That kind of indicates that the same new world migration pattern bias towards the Rhine (which runs along the northern border of Switzerland http://www.fraunberger.com/rhine.gif is present.  Also explains why they all seem to be German speakers - its only the German speaking parts that are being sampled.  Indeed, the French speaking part is only about a quarter (the western fringe). 
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