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NealtheRed
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« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2009, 07:19:45 PM »

With the low number of Danish samples in the FTDNA database, coupled with the emergence of 3 Danish L21 within a year of its discovery, there may be a decent sized sample of L21 in Denmark.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2009, 07:20:08 PM by NealtheRed » Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #26 on: October 03, 2009, 02:07:07 AM »

With the low number of Danish samples in the FTDNA database, coupled with the emergence of 3 Danish L21 within a year of its discovery, there may be a decent sized sample of L21 in Denmark.

You may be right.  It is possible that the initial spread was in a totally mixed group and all the R1b1b2 clades are present almost everywhere and its just the proportions that vary.  I think Ireland being almost totally L21 (if you take away the people with Norman or British names) makes it the odd one out in Europe and that that must surely simply be down to a founder effect.  Ireland's position makes it  a really prime candidate for a founder effect. 
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2009, 02:00:57 PM »

With the low number of Danish samples in the FTDNA database, coupled with the emergence of 3 Danish L21 within a year of its discovery, there may be a decent sized sample of L21 in Denmark.

You may be right.  It is possible that the initial spread was in a totally mixed group and all the R1b1b2 clades are present almost everywhere and its just the proportions that vary.  I think Ireland being almost totally L21 (if you take away the people with Norman or British names) makes it the odd one out in Europe and that that must surely simply be down to a founder effect.  Ireland's position makes it  a really prime candidate for a founder effect. 
I think this idea of the R1b1b2 spread consisting of mixed subclades is the most likely explanation, though it upsets those anxious to identify particular subclades exclusively with different ancient peoples. It may well be though that those R1b1b2 immigrants to Britain just happened to have higher proportions of L21 than those who went in other directions. I believe L21 may turn out to be nearly as dominant in Wales as in Ireland, though I'm not sure about Scotland.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #28 on: October 03, 2009, 02:32:10 PM »

Firstly, there are at least 3 Danish L21 that haven't joined the L21 Project . . .

That is right. I had FTDNA email them and invite them to join, but those Danes never did, and, as I said on another thread, this happens a lot.

I could be wrong, but there is a part of me that suspects that all the early blather about L21 being uniquely British or Irish may have put off some of our continental brethren.

I wish some folks had restrained themselves a bit, but the damage is done.
I am aware of a Dane who was rather dismayed when he was informed by a couple of people that his first 12 markers established that his ancestors were from Ireland. He then extended to 67 and has a 12 at 492, making it highly probable he is P312 or a subclade thereof. I and others have advised him to do a a deep clade test. I don't know whether he will or not. Perhaps he's not interested in being told his ancestors were Viking slaves or were shipped to Denmark from Aberdeen or Dundee.
He is a very good match to one of Mike's L21 clusters, and may well be L21, but we may never know.
The "early blather" about L21 being exclusively from the British Isles continues unabated on at least one other forum.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #29 on: October 03, 2009, 02:39:11 PM »

Firstly, there are at least 3 Danish L21 that haven't joined the L21 Project . . .

That is right. I had FTDNA email them and invite them to join, but those Danes never did, and, as I said on another thread, this happens a lot.

I could be wrong, but there is a part of me that suspects that all the early blather about L21 being uniquely British or Irish may have put off some of our continental brethren.

I wish some folks had restrained themselves a bit, but the damage is done.
I am aware of a Dane who was rather dismayed when he was informed by a couple of people that his first 12 markers established that his ancestors were from Ireland. He then extended to 67 and has a 12 at 492, making it highly probable he is P312 or a subclade thereof. I and others have advised him to do a a deep clade test. I don't know whether he will or not. Perhaps he's not interested in being told his ancestors were Viking slaves or were shipped to Denmark from Aberdeen or Dundee.
He is a very good match to one of Mike's L21 clusters, and may well be L21, but we may never know.
The "early blather" about L21 being exclusively from the British Isles continues unabated on at least one other forum.


Wow, I wish he would get SNP tested. Ignorance is bliss, at least when it comes to the "Out of Britain" hypothesis. I mean, how can somebody think that Europe was colonized by Scots!?
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



rms2
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« Reply #30 on: October 03, 2009, 04:23:02 PM »


I am aware of a Dane who was rather dismayed when he was informed by a couple of people that his first 12 markers established that his ancestors were from Ireland. He then extended to 67 and has a 12 at 492, making it highly probable he is P312 or a subclade thereof. I and others have advised him to do a a deep clade test. I don't know whether he will or not. Perhaps he's not interested in being told his ancestors were Viking slaves or were shipped to Denmark from Aberdeen or Dundee.
He is a very good match to one of Mike's L21 clusters, and may well be L21, but we may never know.
The "early blather" about L21 being exclusively from the British Isles continues unabated on at least one other forum.


Steam starts coming out of my ears when I encounter that kind of stuff. I have to just avoid it.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #31 on: October 04, 2009, 12:22:57 PM »

Firstly, there are at least 3 Danish L21 that haven't joined the L21 Project . . .

That is right. I had FTDNA email them and invite them to join, but those Danes never did, and, as I said on another thread, this happens a lot.

I could be wrong, but there is a part of me that suspects that all the early blather about L21 being uniquely British or Irish may have put off some of our continental brethren.

I wish some folks had restrained themselves a bit, but the damage is done.
.....
The "early blather" about L21 being exclusively from the British Isles continues unabated on at least one other forum.
Still?  What thread is that on?
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #32 on: October 04, 2009, 01:13:27 PM »

DNAForums.
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rms2
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« Reply #33 on: October 07, 2009, 07:10:42 AM »

There's a new Dutch R-L21* in the Benelux Project, Kaptein, kit E9807:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/benelux/default.aspx?section=yresults

I'm hoping he will join the R-L21 Plus Project.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #34 on: October 07, 2009, 09:03:25 AM »

Excellent!! Interesting how the Netherlands is starting to pick up...
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Ysearch: 4PSCK



rms2
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« Reply #35 on: October 07, 2009, 12:45:55 PM »

Excellent!! Interesting how the Netherlands is starting to pick up...

Yes, and there are still at least a couple of them out there who have had their L21+ results for awhile but who never joined the project.
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #36 on: October 07, 2009, 12:56:01 PM »

And these guys are in another project already or found in Ysearch? Who are they and what Id's?
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
GoldenHind
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« Reply #37 on: October 07, 2009, 01:49:16 PM »

Firstly, there are at least 3 Danish L21 that haven't joined the L21 Project . . .

That is right. I had FTDNA email them and invite them to join, but those Danes never did, and, as I said on another thread, this happens a lot.

I could be wrong, but there is a part of me that suspects that all the early blather about L21 being uniquely British or Irish may have put off some of our continental brethren.

I wish some folks had restrained themselves a bit, but the damage is done.
I am aware of a Dane who was rather dismayed when he was informed by a couple of people that his first 12 markers established that his ancestors were from Ireland. He then extended to 67 and has a 12 at 492, making it highly probable he is P312 or a subclade thereof. I and others have advised him to do a a deep clade test. I don't know whether he will or not. Perhaps he's not interested in being told his ancestors were Viking slaves or were shipped to Denmark from Aberdeen or Dundee.
He is a very good match to one of Mike's L21 clusters, and may well be L21, but we may never know.
The "early blather" about L21 being exclusively from the British Isles continues unabated on at least one other forum.


Wow, I wish he would get SNP tested. Ignorance is bliss, at least when it comes to the "Out of Britain" hypothesis. I mean, how can somebody think that Europe was colonized by Scots!?
Good news. I am informed the Dane in question will take the deep clade test.
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #38 on: October 07, 2009, 02:04:44 PM »

On the other board, Wilco, who's Location: the Netherlands, was discussing his maternal grandfather Str's and he let us know that this grandfather just went L21 positive today and he said he joined the L21 project. He states that his Grandfather was "...baptized in 1698 on the Island of IJsselmonde, Holland, the Netherlands. "
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
NealtheRed
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« Reply #39 on: October 07, 2009, 02:43:43 PM »

Wow, a Dane will be Deep Clade testing, and yet another Dutchman has become L21+. You guys are harbingers of good news. lol
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



rms2
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« Reply #40 on: October 07, 2009, 02:55:26 PM »

And these guys are in another project already or found in Ysearch? Who are they and what Id's?

I haven't been able to find them in any projects. I had FTDNA email them and invite them to join, but they haven't joined or otherwise responded yet (and it's been quite awhile).
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rms2
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« Reply #41 on: October 07, 2009, 02:56:11 PM »

On the other board, Wilco, who's Location: the Netherlands, was discussing his maternal grandfather Str's and he let us know that this grandfather just went L21 positive today and he said he joined the L21 project. He states that his Grandfather was "...baptized in 1698 on the Island of IJsselmonde, Holland, the Netherlands. "

Kaptein just joined today, so maybe that is who he was talking about.

If he is the right one, maybe you could get him to enter the info on his "Plot Ancestral Locations" page so I can get him onto the R-L21* European Continent Map.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2009, 03:00:22 PM by rms2 » Logged

Mark Jost
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« Reply #42 on: October 07, 2009, 03:47:25 PM »

I will ask him to do so.
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
rms2
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« Reply #43 on: October 08, 2009, 07:58:20 AM »

I will ask him to do so.

Thanks. He did it, and I have added him to the map.
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #44 on: October 10, 2009, 02:52:49 AM »

Wow, the Continental map is up to 80! And the Northwest quad is filling up.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2009, 02:53:35 AM by mjost » Logged

148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #45 on: October 10, 2009, 07:32:30 PM »

Wow, the Continental map is up to 80! And the Northwest quad is filling up.

I was clearing out my study last week and I came across the a paper copy of the continental R-L21 plus project map that I had printed out 6 months ago.  It was pretty sparse then, It is incredible how much the L21 map has fleshed out in that period.  Six months ago the general pattern to come was only hinted at but now its pretty clear that L21 has a central block in France, SW Germany and adjoing smaller countries. and there is a strong hint of a considerable drop off in L21 east of the (original) Lower Rhine, north of the Main, south of the Alps and west of the Pyrenees.  In those areas greater quantities of other clades like S21, S116*, S28 etc pretty much make a drop off in L21 numbers inevitable.  However, L21 could still have a modest presence over a wide area and I suspect small pockets of higher L21 may be discovered.  Norway is one that is hard to explain.  I have a hunch based on some historical and archaeological evidence that we will see as yet undetected pockets of L21 in Czech Republic and Denmark.   
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #46 on: October 10, 2009, 09:53:12 PM »

The Boii were in the Czech Republic, right?
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MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



rms2
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« Reply #47 on: October 10, 2009, 09:56:07 PM »

The Boii were in the Czech Republic, right?

Yes, they were. We already have a couple of Bavarian guys whose ancestors came from very near Bohemia.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #48 on: October 27, 2009, 02:53:43 PM »

I did a little exercise to see what L21* might be in Netherlands.

I went to the project and took all of the unresolved R1b1b2 and downloaded the 67 marker haplotypes only.  There were 11.   6 of the 11 were 492=13.  Although that doesn't guarantee they are R-U106, that makes it highly likely.   I looked at the other 5 of the 11 to see if they fit in with our R-L21* haplotypes.  Here is what I found:

Netherlands 85208 Albert Derks, b.c. 1630, Hesselte, Netherlands is not too far from
R-L21* 111060 Emblem - Norway

Netherlands 104513   Hendrik op de Haar, 1625-1688, Gramsbergen NL is not too far from
R-L21*  82065 Beatty - Unknown
[this one is interesting because Beatty is clearly in the Leinster/Irish Sea category]

Netherlands 133559 Kees Drost b.<1695  is not too far from
R-21* 125553 Archibald Harvey Johnston, Scotland to Ire 1700s 

Netherlands N55317   Joseph Joel Bailey 1821 is not too far from
R-L21* 62402 William Savage b1811, Ballynahinch, Down, Ireland and
R-L21* 27994 Aaron Boggs (1750-1832) Edinburgh, Scotland and 
R-L21* ys SCM67 Walters - Maryland, USA 

This guy seemed to not fit with anybody
Netherlands 30181 Asse Hendriks Beltman

Mind you, not too far means some slower markers fitting and a GD of <20 at 67.  No one looks like cousins or anything like that.

Perhaps a little less than half of the R1b1b2 in the Netherlands might be either R-L21* or R-P312*.... my guess is mostly likely R-L21*.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #49 on: October 27, 2009, 03:08:36 PM »

Mike I had a look at Holland just looking at the clade projects andm bearing in mind there are 2 L21s that have not joined the project, concluded that there is a significant split in clade balance in Holland coinciding with the former line of the Rhine (Note the Rhine in Holland has moved significantly further north in more recent times ).  L21 seems much higher on the south/west side at the expense og S21.  My guess is that L21 in south Holland may be around the 40% mark as a percentage of R1b1b2, somewhat similar to the German Rhineland.  Its probably a much lower percentage of Holland and Germany as a whole.      
« Last Edit: October 27, 2009, 08:37:39 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
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