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Author Topic: Netherlands R-L21*  (Read 5557 times)
rms2
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« on: April 17, 2009, 10:59:01 AM »

We already have one Nederlander in the R-L21 Plus Project: Teulings. Well, I was goofing around this morning with "My Matches" pages and found a second one. I have asked FTDNA to invite him to join the R-L21 Plus Project, and they have done so.

Now we wait.

Sadly, not every R-L21* accepts my invitation.

How do I know for sure there are at least two? Well this "My Matches" entry said "R1b1b2a1b5  Netherlands  2 ". So, there are at least two of them.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2009, 12:52:03 PM by rms2 » Logged

NealtheRed
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« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2009, 05:19:42 PM »

This is like the Denmark situation. We know there are at least three Danish L21.

On my Haplotree page, there are at least 2 Dutch L21 that apparently haven't uploaded their results to Ysearch.

The area known as Northern Germany/Netherlands/Denmark is a time bomb waiting to explode.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



rms2
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« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2009, 11:33:17 AM »

I don't know if this is the one we've been talking about, but there is a new Dutch R-L21* here (kit N3933, Ammerlaan):

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/benelux/default.aspx?section=yresults
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2009, 11:55:46 AM »

Ah, very good, Rich! Do you know from where in the Netherlands?
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



rms2
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« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2009, 01:35:34 PM »

Ah, very good, Rich! Do you know from where in the Netherlands?

I haven't been able to find him in YSearch searching by that last name.

I think this may not be the same one I started this thread about, because I checked the Benelux Project when I found out about that one, and Teulings was the only R-L21* listed then (a couple of days ago). This is yet another new one, I think.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2009, 02:16:00 PM »

I knew there were at least 2 Dutch L21 because of my haplotree matches. Checking project pages looks like the best bet since many aren't posting their results to Y-search.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



rms2
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« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2009, 07:44:37 PM »

I knew there were at least 2 Dutch L21 because of my haplotree matches. Checking project pages looks like the best bet since many aren't posting their results to Y-search.

I think so. Now that we have that green "R1b1b2a1b5" to look for, we can spot them when they show up.
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vtilroe
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« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2009, 08:19:16 PM »

Ah, very good, Rich! Do you know from where in the Netherlands?
The Benelux Project has him pinned at pinned at Wassenaar, Zuid-Holland, just NE of Den Haag near the Atlantic coast.  See http://www.meertens.knaw.nl/nfd/kaartje.php?naam=Ammerlaan for the 1947 census surname distribution.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2009, 01:01:00 AM by vtilroe » Logged

YSearch & MitoSearch: 2GXWW


yDNA: R-U106*


mtDNA: U5a1a1 (Genbank# GQ368895)


R-P312-WTY Project Admin http://tinyurl.com/daertg

NealtheRed
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« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2009, 09:21:42 PM »

Well, I looked over my Haplotree page for Dutch L21 and I have 2 L21 matches at 3 steps and 2 L21 at 4 steps: that's 4 Dutch L21 on my FTDNA page.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



rms2
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« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2009, 06:52:32 PM »

Well, I looked over my Haplotree page for Dutch L21 and I have 2 L21 matches at 3 steps and 2 L21 at 4 steps: that's 4 Dutch L21 on my FTDNA page.

Ah! Now if we could just find them all and get them into the project! Ammerlaan still hasn't joined, unfortunately.

Four is not bad, though, and there may be more. Too bad they're not all in the Benelux Project and/or YSearch. Then at least we could possibly add them to the R-L21* Map, if nothing else.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2009, 06:53:19 PM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2009, 08:02:12 PM »

Hooray! Ammerlaan finally joined the R-L21 Plus Project today!

Now if the other Dutch R-L21*s would join!
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rms2
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« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2009, 12:49:09 PM »

We added another Dutch R-L21* a day or two ago: Van Der Merwe, whose ancestor came from Dordrecht in South Holland. That makes three who are project members. There are at least two more who just never have joined the R-L21 Plus Project.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2009, 12:58:03 PM »

Remember those phantom 5 we talked about a long time ago? They're here. lol
« Last Edit: October 01, 2009, 12:58:18 PM by NealtheRed » Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2009, 02:16:27 PM »

We added another Dutch R-L21* a day or two ago: Van Der Merwe, whose ancestor came from Dordrecht in South Holland. That makes three who are project members. There are at least two more who just never have joined the R-L21 Plus Project.

this town is in south Holland in an area which was on the south/west side of the Rhine. The Rhine has moved to the south in historic times. Its old route lay along a channel now known as the Old Rhine in Dutch passing through Katwijts (not sure I spelled that correctly).  This is well north of the present line.  I think all the plotted Dutch L21 is from the south/west side of the original Rhine route on what was l the Celtic (Belgic) side of the original boundaries between them and the Germans, which was also later the boundary of the Roman empire.  There surely has to be some L21 in Belgium.  Only three people have ever tested there so we really have no idea.  Anyway, here is some rare film footage of Julius Caesar getting his comeupance for conquering the Gauls. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvs4bOMv5Xw
« Last Edit: October 01, 2009, 02:27:16 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2009, 02:36:28 PM »

We added another Dutch R-L21* a day or two ago: Van Der Merwe, whose ancestor came from Dordrecht in South Holland. That makes three who are project members. There are at least two more who just never have joined the R-L21 Plus Project.

Maybe worth emailing them again asking them again to join, attaching an L21 continental map now that the continental distribution is beefing up.  Where are the two non-member from? 
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rms2
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« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2009, 06:34:01 PM »

We added another Dutch R-L21* a day or two ago: Van Der Merwe, whose ancestor came from Dordrecht in South Holland. That makes three who are project members. There are at least two more who just never have joined the R-L21 Plus Project.

Maybe worth emailing them again asking them again to join, attaching an L21 continental map now that the continental distribution is beefing up.  Where are the two non-member from? 

I don't even know who they are. They just appear as stats on various members' Haplotree/My Matches pages.

I had FTDNA email them and invite them to join, but there never was a response.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2009, 08:45:35 PM »

If the other two L21 are from the south, five hits seems pretty reasonable  for south Holland (south of the old Rhine line).  Glancing at the projects, I think there are only 3 S116*, about 6 S28s and 7 S21s in the same area.  That makes L21 nearly a quarter of R1b1b2 that has been resolved there.  Add to that that the projects suggest that only about 8 L21 tests may have ever taken place in southern Holland and the fact its only been available to test for a fraction of the time of S21 and S28 then I think 20% is probably a minimum figure.  I suspect there may be a considerable chunk of S116 is L21.

In northern Holland there is no L21 or S116* in the projects maps but about 9 S21s and 6 S28s.  There really seems to be a difference on either side of the old Rhine boundary.  North of the Rhine that would suggest about 60% of Dutch R1b is S21 while in Holland south of the Rhine line it falls to about half of that.  That makes the S21 count in south Holland similar to north Belgium (Flemish survey).  My guess is that in southern Holland, L21 may be around a quarter of R1b1b2, perhaps more given how short a time it has beeni known.  

More importantly, I understand it is possible to eliminate S21 using STRs if there are enough markers.  If so, then that leave us looking for L21 among other S116 clades.  L21 in southern Holland seems to be so far a little under 40% of S116 resolved by the projects and that is likely to be an underestimate. SO, if S21 can be eliminated and we are testing S116 looking for L21 then I would guess we could expect anything up to a 50% hit rate with L21 maybe a third of all R1b1b2 in southern Holland.  This is all very guesstimatey but suggests that L21 testing in southern Holland would not be too painful.  I also think this suggests that Belgium may have a simiilar count.  
« Last Edit: October 02, 2009, 07:13:41 AM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
NealtheRed
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« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2009, 10:20:05 PM »

I think now it's safe to say that the Belgic population included L21.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2009, 07:18:36 AM »

I think now it's safe to say that the Belgic population included L21.

Yeah Belgium's  void seems extremely likely to be misleading.  If we can weed out the S21 from the sample and test at least 2 or 3 there it seems likely we would get an L21 hit.  Its a fact of life that outside France we will have to accept one or two missed for every hit but no pain no gain.   
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2009, 11:45:12 AM »

How can we explain the high presence of L21 in northern France (possibly Belgium, as you say), the S21 dominant Netherlands, but then an L21 dominant southern Norway? There's a break in continuity between Scandinavia and northern France.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2009, 12:04:35 PM »

How can we explain the high presence of L21 in northern France (possibly Belgium, as you say), the S21 dominant Netherlands, but then an L21 dominant southern Norway? There's a break in continuity between Scandinavia and northern France.

Founder effects are all I can think of.  Funnel beaker culture is descended from Linearbandkeramik via Rossen culture.  So if there was L21 in Linearbandkeramik it could have arrived as a minority clade in the Funnel beaker period and undergone a founder effect as it crossed the sea from the south.  Just a guess but its a possible scenario.   All that would be required to make that possible is that a small quantity if L21 made it to north Germany/Denmark. 
« Last Edit: October 02, 2009, 12:06:41 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
GoldenHind
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« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2009, 03:45:25 PM »

How can we explain the high presence of L21 in northern France (possibly Belgium, as you say), the S21 dominant Netherlands, but then an L21 dominant southern Norway? There's a break in continuity between Scandinavia and northern France.

Founder effects are all I can think of.  Funnel beaker culture is descended from Linearbandkeramik via Rossen culture.  So if there was L21 in Linearbandkeramik it could have arrived as a minority clade in the Funnel beaker period and undergone a founder effect as it crossed the sea from the south.  Just a guess but its a possible scenario.   All that would be required to make that possible is that a small quantity if L21 made it to north Germany/Denmark. 
Without necessarily agreeing with your hypothesis how they got there, I strongly suspect L21 will ultimately prove to be more common in northern Germany and Denmark than is currently believed to be the case, though still a minority amongst R1b subclades there.
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2009, 06:06:04 PM »

Is there that many R1b1b2's or lower P312's that have not been L21 Deepclade  tested yet to make a difference in the existing ratio of existing Haplogroups?
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
NealtheRed
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« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2009, 06:27:16 PM »

Firstly, there are at least 3 Danish L21 that haven't joined the L21 Project, and earlier studies suggested that U106 only accounts for about 50% of the R1b population in Denmark. That leaves the rest to P312* and L21, mostly.

Another reason is that most people of German heritage who test (from the U.S. anyway) are from the southern areas such as Baden or Bavaria. We have two members with roots in northern Germany: Friesland and I believe Schleswig-Holstein.

As an aside, I personally think L21 got to Norway by crossing the Skagerrak. One wave went into Norway, while the other went into areas of Sweden (Kalmar, Ostrogotland).
« Last Edit: October 02, 2009, 06:29:09 PM by NealtheRed » Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



rms2
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« Reply #24 on: October 02, 2009, 07:10:35 PM »

Firstly, there are at least 3 Danish L21 that haven't joined the L21 Project . . .

That is right. I had FTDNA email them and invite them to join, but those Danes never did, and, as I said on another thread, this happens a lot.

I could be wrong, but there is a part of me that suspects that all the early blather about L21 being uniquely British or Irish may have put off some of our continental brethren.

I wish some folks had restrained themselves a bit, but the damage is done.
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