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Mike Walsh
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« on: May 18, 2009, 03:27:50 PM »

A new paper is due out soon titled. "The genetic position of Western Brittany (Finistère, France) in the Celtic Y chromosome landscape"
http://tiny.cc/iwW5E

I can't wait to see any data they'll release with this.  Quotes from the abstract say "82.2% of the Y chromosomes fell into haplogroup R1b" and "results are consistent with those obtained from classic genetic markers and support the Celtic paternal heritage of the Finistère population."

The authors seem to think this confirms a migration of Britons to Brittany c.400-600 AD during the Anglo-Saxon Invasions of Britain.    However, I don't think we can assume that was a one-way street.   How do we know if the Britons traversing to Brittany weren't really just family returning home?     On the other hand, some of the Briton look-a-likes in Britain in later times may have just been Bretons that were part of the Norman Invasion of Britain in 1066 AD.
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rms2
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« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2009, 08:22:34 PM »

I agree. One reason I think the Britons found it so congenial to settle in Armorica is because they already had Celtic cousins there. Their coming was just a continuation of an ages-old cross-Channel exchange.
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susanrosine
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« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2009, 02:04:12 PM »

What I noticed is that there was NO mention of Haplogroup I, though other Hgs were mentioned. Usually I is found hanging out with R1b1b2.  Also, it sounds as though they are labeling the R1b as being "Celtic". But don't we generally think it arose before the Celtic culture, and probably proto-Celtic/Beaker people?
Just my initial thoughts!!
Logged

Dad: JAMES:  Ysearch QSCQ3;  R-P312, L21+ (R1b1b2a1b5*)
Dad: mitosearch QSCQ3; T1a; no matches HVR2 or FGS
Mom's brother: LEWTER: Ysearch FYFDA;  R-U106, L48+ (R1b1b2a1a*)
Mom's brother: mitosearch FYFDA, U5b2; 1 exac
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2009, 06:05:51 PM »

... Also, it sounds as though they are labeling the R1b as being "Celtic". But don't we generally think it arose before the Celtic culture, and probably proto-Celtic/Beaker people?
I agree that one should be cautious about labeling a haplogroup with a cultural label, but I haven't seen the whole paper so I don't know what they really are saying. 

Another question that is drawn out is "when did the first Celtic culture begin?"    This is partly an arbitrary decision. "Proto" just means "first" or "original" so if the Beaker folks spoke a Celtic language there is some logic to saying they were the first Celts. .. or maybe it was the Goidels and maybe the Goidels were just one of the first Beaker groups.

There are some who think Celtic cultures can not have happened prior to the Halstatt culture.  Others think the "true" Celts are La Tiene only. I don't, but I'm not really sure it matters much to me as long as I can figure out who my ancestors were and where they were as we go back in time.
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susanrosine
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« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2009, 12:39:35 PM »

Good point; we haven't seen the whole paper, just the abstract.

Proto can also mean "on the way to becoming" which was how I was using it. I'm sure the Celtics themselves didn't wake up one day and say "we are Celts". In fact, I don't think they ever called themselves that, and it wasn't as though the Celts were ever one large "nation" as we think of nations or countries today. So the word Celtic and the Celtic culture are both tricky things!!!!!!!  Even the Celtic language--so many branches!!

I guess I'm concerned about labeling R1b1b2 (especially L21) as being Celtic. I don't know of any European country today that is strictly one haplogroup, and I'm sure 3000 years ago there was already quite a mix. As I said, my biggest surprise was that there was no mention of Haplogroup I in the abstract, which seems to be the second biggest group anywhere that is strongly R1b1b2--indicating to me that possibly these two Hgs have lived together for a very, very long time. However, we'll see what the paper says when the full version is available!!

Logged

Dad: JAMES:  Ysearch QSCQ3;  R-P312, L21+ (R1b1b2a1b5*)
Dad: mitosearch QSCQ3; T1a; no matches HVR2 or FGS
Mom's brother: LEWTER: Ysearch FYFDA;  R-U106, L48+ (R1b1b2a1a*)
Mom's brother: mitosearch FYFDA, U5b2; 1 exac
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2009, 04:55:47 PM »

... Proto can also mean "on the way to becoming" which was how I was using it.
I'm not trying to be hard you but I think we should be consistent so our communications aren't confused.   I think the common meaning of "proto-" is "indicating the first or earliest or original"
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=proto

For situations where we are talking about "on the way to becoming" I'd recommend using the prefix "pre-".  For instance Pre-Celtic.
Quote from: susanrosine
I'm sure the Celtics themselves didn't wake up one day and say "we are Celts". ......
You are absolutely correct.  This is often the case. Celticist authors like Barry Cunliffe discuss this in great detail for those interested.
Quote from: susanrosine
I guess I'm concerned about labeling R1b1b2 (especially L21) as being Celtic. I don't know of any European country today that is strictly one haplogroup....
Agreed, although I'm not really concerned.  People do it all the time.  Sometimes their intentions are good and they just didn't add a bunch of caveats.   In the case of R1b1b2, which I find easier to call "R-M269", I think the odds are quite likely that some subclades are not Celtic.  For instance, R-U106.   However, some day we may find out that many R-U106 were Celtic folks that were adopted into Germanic tribes or were otherwise "Germanized."

Come to think, I could fit into that category since I speak a West Germanic language..... English.

The label itself matters little to me from a pride standpoint.  Many, if not most, are probably as mixed.  I've also got ancestral surnames like Shultz, Pletcher, Kovarik, Brown, le Boteler etc. so I've got the German, Slavic, English, French angles covered, and probably more as well..  including Celtic of course, probably both "P" and "Q".
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susanrosine
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« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2009, 10:41:00 PM »

I'm not trying to be hard you but I think we should be consistent so our communications aren't confused.   I think the common meaning of "proto-" is "indicating the first or earliest or original"
For situations where we are talking about "on the way to becoming" I'd recommend using the prefix "pre-".  For instance Pre-Celtic.

 In the case of R1b1b2, which I find easier to call "R-M269", I think the odds are quite likely that some subclades are not Celtic.  For instance, R-U106.   However, some day we may find out that many R-U106 were Celtic folks that were adopted into Germanic tribes or were otherwise "Germanized."

No, you're not being hard on me; it's good to all use the same lingo so we are all sure we're talking about the same thing!

I agree with you. I don't think the R-U106 were Celtic. Oh, I'm sure a few managed to sneak in before a DNA test was run on them (LOL), but I'm looking at the large numbers of R-L21 in Ireland, Scotland and Wales, and seeing that although L21 is certainly not uncommon in England, R-U106 is in the lead there, but way, way, way behind in Wales (and I'm sure Scotland and Ireland, though I haven't checked). And that's with all the mixing that's been going on for thousands of years!!!

Oh I'm so many things, if you throw all my known haplogroups together, I'm not sure how much I really "care". I'm just fascinated by it all. I have Y-DNA I, G, J, N, and R ancestors..........so far. R is far in the lead, but at least I have several flavors of R to add to my fun.

Anyway, back on topic--I'm really interested in reading this article when it comes out, in part because I want to see if there is mention of Hg I1 or even I2.
Logged

Dad: JAMES:  Ysearch QSCQ3;  R-P312, L21+ (R1b1b2a1b5*)
Dad: mitosearch QSCQ3; T1a; no matches HVR2 or FGS
Mom's brother: LEWTER: Ysearch FYFDA;  R-U106, L48+ (R1b1b2a1a*)
Mom's brother: mitosearch FYFDA, U5b2; 1 exac
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2009, 09:19:28 AM »

... I'm looking at the large numbers of R-L21 in Ireland, Scotland and Wales, and seeing that although L21 is certainly not uncommon in England....
That is interesting and kind of what I'd expect one to find if you could determine who had Celtic paternal ancestors.
I'd expect a lot if Western Brittany too.  Hopefully the study has some differentiation between P312 and U106 at least.
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rms2
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« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2009, 09:48:56 AM »

. . . I'm looking at the large numbers of R-L21 in Ireland, Scotland and Wales, and seeing that although L21 is certainly not uncommon in England, R-U106 is in the lead there, but way, way, way behind in Wales (and I'm sure Scotland and Ireland, though I haven't checked). And that's with all the mixing that's been going on for thousands of years!!!

Testing for R-U106 has been going on since 2005. Testing for L21 has been going since the end of October, 2008. You cannot really compare the two. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if L21 didn't ultimately surpass U106 in England.

The same is true of U152. Testing for it has been going on since 2005.

Here's another thing about U106 and U152. They both had several years in which they were thought of as unique haplogroups without subdivision. As a result, they were looked on as blocks and equated with Germanics on the one hand and "La Tene Celts" on the other. Now we know, however, that neither group is a monolith. They each have subclades and should not be looked on as a single thing.

When P312 was discovered, right away we knew it had major subdivisions, like U152 and SRY2627. It wasn't ever thought of as a single, monolithic thing that could be equated with one particular ethnic group. Then, just seven months after P312 was discovered, L21 was discovered (for all practical purposes, anyway), and very quickly we knew it had a major subclade, too: M222.

I guess what I am trying to say is that U106 and U152 have enjoyed major advantages in having been discovered first, not least of which are propaganda advantages. Partisans of both of those haplogroups were able to stake claims to heroic ancestral stories while the rest of us were relegated to "the cast of thousands", whose ancestors acted as bystanders to and victims of their ancestors' exploits.

It's going to take awhile to make up those deficits.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2009, 02:09:14 PM by rms2 » Logged

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2009, 10:53:03 AM »


I guess what I am trying to say is that U106 and U152 have enjoyed major advantages in having been discovered first, not least of which are propaganda advantages. Partisans of both of those haplogroups were able to stake claims to heroic ancestral stories while the rest of us were relegated to "the cast of thousands", whose ancestors acted as bystanders to and victims of their ancestors' exploits.

It's going to take awhile to make up those deficits.
[/quote]

Good, S....!
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Maliclavelli


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rms2
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« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2009, 01:09:05 PM »

Here is another thing.

U106 and U152 were both discovered and testing was begun for them while the world economy was excellent and there was plenty of extra income for dna testing.

L21 was discovered just as the economy went to hell in a handbasket. Far fewer folks have extra cash these days for things like dna testing.

I hope Deep Clade-R testing doesn't slow too much.
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rms2
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« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2009, 02:46:52 PM »

If you take a look at our three R-L21* Bretons - Le Bras, Le Com, and Gery - in YSearch, you will note there is nothing startlingly insular British about them. Despite the fact that I think almost everyone attributes their R-L21* to the historic influx of British into Armorica at the close of the Roman Period, they don't have matches that make that obvious - or even apparent - at all.

Le Bras and Le Com have only 37 markers. The former has no real close matches. The latter has a WAMHish haplotype, so everyone is his neighbor at 37 markers, but no one is real close either.

Gery's closest match at 37 markers is another French R-L21*, Rotrou, but even he is 8 away. At 67 markers, no one gets closer to Gery than 16 away.

Anyway, I think you get my point. If our Bretons are the descendants of Welshmen or Cornishmen or other Britons who came to Armorica in the 5th or 6th century AD, they sure aren't showing it.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2009, 07:33:03 PM by rms2 » Logged

susanrosine
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« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2009, 01:28:59 AM »

If you take a look at our three R-L21* Bretons - Le Bras, Le Com, and Gery - in YSearch, you will note there is nothing startlingly insular British about them. Despite the fact that I think almost everyone attributes their R-L21* to the historic influx of British into Armorica at the close of the Roman Period, they don't have matches that make that obvious - or even apparent - at all.

Le Bras and Le Com have only 37 markers. The former has no real close matches. The latter has a WAMHish haplotype, so everyone is his neighbor at 37 markers, but no one is real close either.

Gery's closest match at 37 markers is another French R-L21*, Rotrou, but even he is 8 away. At 67 markers, no one gets closer to Gery than 16 away.

Anyway, I think you get my point. If our Bretons are the descendants of Welshmen or Cornishmen or other Britons who came to Armorica in the 5th or 6th century AD, they sure aren't showing it.

I agree with you on this,  but then again, I've never committed myself to believing that R-L21* came from Britain to Armorica.
Logged

Dad: JAMES:  Ysearch QSCQ3;  R-P312, L21+ (R1b1b2a1b5*)
Dad: mitosearch QSCQ3; T1a; no matches HVR2 or FGS
Mom's brother: LEWTER: Ysearch FYFDA;  R-U106, L48+ (R1b1b2a1a*)
Mom's brother: mitosearch FYFDA, U5b2; 1 exac
susanrosine
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« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2009, 01:38:36 AM »

. . . I'm looking at the large numbers of R-L21 in Ireland, Scotland and Wales, and seeing that although L21 is certainly not uncommon in England, R-U106 is in the lead there, but way, way, way behind in Wales (and I'm sure Scotland and Ireland, though I haven't checked). And that's with all the mixing that's been going on for thousands of years!!!

Testing for R-U106 has been going on since 2005. Testing for L21 has been going since the end of October, 2008. You cannot really compare the two. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if L21 didn't ultimately surpass U106 in England.

The same is true of U152. Testing for it has been going on since 2005.

Here's another thing about U106 and U152. They both had several years in which they were thought of as unique haplogroups without subdivision. As a result, they were looked on as blocks and equated with Germanics on the one hand and "La Tene Celts" on the other. Now we know, however, that neither group is a monolith. They each have subclades and should not be looked on as a single thing.

When P312 was discovered, right away we knew it had major subdivisions, like U152 and SRY2627. It wasn't ever thought of as a single, monolithic thing that could be equated with one particular ethnic group. Then, just seven months after P312 was discovered, L21 was discovered (for all practical purposes, anyway), and very quickly we knew it had a major subclade, too: M222.

I guess what I am trying to say is that U106 and U152 have enjoyed major advantages in having been discovered first, not least of which are propaganda advantages. Partisans of both of those haplogroups were able to stake claims to heroic ancestral stories while the rest of us were relegated to "the cast of thousands", whose ancestors acted as bystanders to and victims of their ancestors' exploits.

It's going to take awhile to make up those deficits.
Yes, it's true, testing for L21 has only been around for a short time. We need to keep getting the word out that to test for it is only $29!!! I keep prodding and poking and begging my Wales DNA project members--and to their credit, I've had many people order the deep clade. But, the project is so "overwhelmed" with R1b1b2 people, I'm sure I'll never get them to all do deep clade testing.
Be interested in seeing if L21 surpasses U106 in England. I'll keep an open mind, unlike a few who cling to their theories til the bitter end LOL!!!  But I don't know, something says to me that England is "different" from Wales, Scotland and Ireland.
Discovery of more SNPs right now would come in awfully handy. Crossing my fingers for success with the various WTY projects.
Logged

Dad: JAMES:  Ysearch QSCQ3;  R-P312, L21+ (R1b1b2a1b5*)
Dad: mitosearch QSCQ3; T1a; no matches HVR2 or FGS
Mom's brother: LEWTER: Ysearch FYFDA;  R-U106, L48+ (R1b1b2a1a*)
Mom's brother: mitosearch FYFDA, U5b2; 1 exac
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2009, 11:47:14 AM »

... Be interested in seeing if L21 surpasses U106 in England. I'll keep an open mind, unlike a few who cling to their theories til the bitter end LOL!!!  But I don't know, something says to me that England is "different" from Wales, Scotland and Ireland. ....
This is just my opinion, but I think England is more like Wales, Ireland and Scotland than people realize.....   to be a little more precise, I think England is about "half" different than Wales.
What I mean is that Wales, Ireland and Scotland never received the level of Anglo-Saxon and perhaps Danish input as England....   and after looking at some studies and discussing this quite a bit, my guess is about half of England's Y DNA population is quite like that of Wales'.   That doesn't mean "half" R-L21*.. remember Wales has a variety of Y DNA too.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2009, 12:07:33 PM by Mike » Logged

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