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Author Topic: Italian R-L21*  (Read 9963 times)
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #50 on: October 11, 2009, 02:09:20 AM »

Probably his surname is Basile, but probably his origin not. He is very close to XEQXQ (Mac Neill) and probably his genetical origins are from Ireland.
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Maliclavelli


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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #51 on: October 11, 2009, 07:12:09 AM »

This L21 is such an outlier, one of the only ones south of the Alps and the only one on the Mediteranean.  It is tempting to suggest that he has a Norman ancestor. From 1068 when 700 Norman knights conquered the island to around 1300 the island was ruled by French aristoracy and middle class (one estimate is 8000 settlers came).   There is nowhere in Europe other than Ireland (and maybe Wales) with as much L21 as northern France where the Normans military men tended to come from.   There were also earlier phases of Vandal, Gothic and Lombard rule but I do not see their east Germanic roots as likely L21 sources
« Last Edit: October 11, 2009, 07:21:45 AM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #52 on: October 11, 2009, 07:35:06 AM »

I thought of the possible Norman connection, as well, since we already have several French R-L21*s with roots in Normandy.

But he isn't exactly the only R-L21* on the Mediterranean. There is a Greek R-L21* in FTDNA's database who just never has joined the project. We don't know about his details.

Maliclavelli is right, though. At 67 markers Basile has no close matches at all, but at 37 there is a MacNeill (XEQXQ) from Northern Ireland at 35/37, a Matheson (SVVQK) from Scotland at 33/37, and a McFarland (S5UU8) of Scotland at 32/37.

I'm not sure how much those mean. Lately I've seen guys with matches of 33/37 with men from other subclades. We would have to see how they would hold up at 67 markers. 35/37 seems a close match, but I guess it could lose a lot of steam at 67 markers. Basile has loads of people fairly close at 37 markers and from all sorts of subclades. He's got one of those kind of haplotypes.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #53 on: October 11, 2009, 09:41:14 AM »

Everything is possible, but Basile matches Mac Neill in the fast mutating markers and, before thinking to a Norman origin, I'd be curious to investigate on something more recent and we can't think to a Norman origin of Irishmen an Scots.
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Maliclavelli


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rms2
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« Reply #54 on: October 11, 2009, 11:03:03 AM »

Everything is possible, but Basile matches Mac Neill in the fast mutating markers and, before thinking to a Norman origin, I'd be curious to investigate on something more recent and we can't think to a Norman origin of Irishmen an Scots.

You may be right, but I am wary of attributing an Irish or Scottish origin to Basile based on 37-marker matches that may or may not hold up at 67 markers.

I think you meant "Basile matches Mac Neill in the slow mutating markers", since matching someone on the fast mutating markers is more likely to be the product of convergence than matching someone on the slow mutating markers is. Of course, they do differ at 390, which is a slow mutator, but the other difference is at 576, which is a fast mutator.

About all I would be willing to say is that MacNeill and McFarland are likely to be L21+, too.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #55 on: October 11, 2009, 11:05:24 AM »

Everything is possible, but Basile matches Mac Neill in the fast mutating markers and, before thinking to a Norman origin, I'd be curious to investigate on something more recent and we can't think to a Norman origin of Irishmen an Scots.

There is evidence that in Ireland anyway the Normans and the Gaelic Irish L21 had very similar STRs, with a mixture of both falling into a single cluster (Leinster).  I have a hunch that is not due to non-paternal events but because both the Norman settlers and Iron Age settlers to that part of Ireland may have come from the same area (northern France), albeit perhaps 1500 years apart.  I could be completely wrong.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #56 on: October 11, 2009, 11:15:26 AM »

One of the (economically unavoidable) problems with testing mainly low STR marker tested French R!b1b2 for L21 is that this means we get a lot of L21 but little progress in terms of matches and clusters based on STRs etc.  That will make the chances of getting close matches to French L21 using STRs very low and will make the nearest non-French matches look the closest.  This may be misleading.   I think for that reason and because of the huge biase towards the isles in the databases, FTDNA or other STR based matching can be misleading.  A good example of this is the number of people from Ireland and Britain whose closest STR matches seemed to be with Spain.  This was probably due to Spain having been much better sampled than France etc.  Most importantly, the Spanish matches mainly proved to be S116* but the isles L21+ so the STR matches were totally misleading.  How many Norman French or even north French have been tested with 67 or even 37 STR markers?  I dont know but I would be surprised if its even a handful?? 
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rms2
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« Reply #57 on: October 11, 2009, 11:55:25 AM »

We have ten 67-marker haplotypes and six 37-marker haplotypes in the French category of the R-L21 Plus Project, but our members tend to comprise a dedicated and enthusiastic group. Otherwise, it seems to me 67-marker French haplotypes are hard to come by, although I haven't gone so far as to count them.

It seems to me those who order longer haplotypes tend to be the same ones who order SNP testing. They have greater interest in and enthusiasm for genetic genealogy than the average person, and those things motivate them to go for all the knowledge they can acquire.

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #58 on: October 11, 2009, 12:09:54 PM »

We have ten 67-marker haplotypes and six 37-marker haplotypes in the French category of the R-L21 Plus Project, but our members tend to comprise a dedicated and enthusiastic group. Otherwise, it seems to me 67-marker French haplotypes are hard to come by, although I haven't gone so far as to count them.

It seems to me those who order longer haplotypes tend to be the same ones who order SNP testing. They have greater interest in and enthusiasm for genetic genealogy than the average person, and those things motivate them to go for all the knowledge they can acquire.



Only a very small amount of Normans though although that still represents an impressive hit rate for L21 testing in the area.  I am still a pessimist when it comes to STR matching.  With numbers so low everwhere and the database very biased to the isles and to a lesser degree some other areas it still will have a lot to do with  chance.
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rms2
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« Reply #59 on: October 11, 2009, 12:22:50 PM »

Only a very small amount of Normans though although that still represents an impressive hit rate for L21 testing in the area.  I am still a pessimist when it comes to STR matching.  With numbers so low everwhere and the database very biased to the isles and to a lesser degree some other areas it still will have a lot to do with  chance.

Oh, I agree. I'm pessimistic about STR matching and clustering, too. In my opinion, a lot of folks are involved in finding clusters who probably shouldn't be (I mean no offense), and that includes myself. There are very few people who are good at it, Ken Nordtvedt being one, but he's a genius, and few of us can measure up to that standard.

That is not to say there are no haplotype clusters out there; there are, but they should be distinctive, verifiable, easily recognized, and we should be careful about labeling them too quickly.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #60 on: October 11, 2009, 12:44:32 PM »

Rich, I haven’t all your admiration for reality, I prefer in this case phantasy, but, please, explain to Basile that NPE isn’t “Nuova Politica Economica (Novaya  Ekonomiceskaya Politika)”. It would be very strange that a Sicilian matches an Irishman better than all the other Irishmen and Scots etc. tested.
Calculating their MRCA, by the mutation rate for these times, they have one about 3 or 400 years ago.
I bet with you all that his ancestor isn’t a Norman, but an Irish named John (Don John).
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Maliclavelli


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rms2
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« Reply #61 on: October 11, 2009, 02:23:01 PM »

Rich, I haven’t all your admiration for reality, I prefer in this case phantasy, but, please, explain to Basile that NPE isn’t “Nuova Politica Economica (Novaya  Ekonomiceskaya Politika)”. It would be very strange that a Sicilian matches an Irishman better than all the other Irishmen and Scots etc. tested.
Calculating their MRCA, by the mutation rate for these times, they have one about 3 or 400 years ago.
I bet with you all that his ancestor isn’t a Norman, but an Irish named John (Don John).


You could be right, but you have more faith in 37 markers than I have, especially with what I have seen lately.

I think the match indicates that they are both R-L21*,  but beyond that I wouldn't go on as far as betting on ancestry shared in genealogical time. I would have to wait and see what happens when MacNeill goes to 67 markers (if he does).

Someone pointed out to me via email that there was a Norman fortress at Catania.

Still, MacNeill is not Basile's only reasonably proximate Gaelic neighbor, so your case is good.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2009, 02:23:21 PM by rms2 » Logged

Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen
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« Reply #62 on: October 11, 2009, 05:47:39 PM »

"There are very few people who are good at it, Ken Nordtvedt being one, but he's a genius, and few of us can measure up to that standard."

Again, I totally agree. Ken is a genius in this field. You are spot on these days! 
 
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #63 on: October 11, 2009, 08:33:26 PM »

Ken does have the advantage of having invented time travel during his physics days working on gravity when he discovered bending gravity allowed him to  bending time.  He kept it to himself and only uses it for I-clade research and to cheat on betting on horse racing.  He just goes out to his garage, sets the coordinates to I-cladeland 6000BC and goes and checks out what actually happened.  I think that cheating and the least he can do is let us R-folks borrow his time machine occasionally when he isnt using it :0) 
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« Reply #64 on: October 11, 2009, 09:26:27 PM »

Funny, I wonder if he has a DeLorean.
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argiedude
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« Reply #65 on: October 16, 2009, 06:07:15 PM »

I got your email, Steve (that you sent 5 days ago, he he). Very nice. A Sicilian L21. I can already see that he has nothing in common with me or Bonnet, the 2 North Italian L21's. How does he match the L21+ P66+ haplotype, which was reported to be from an Italian? And is he P66+, by any wild chance? That would really be something.
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y-dna: R1b L21
mtdna: U5
rms2
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« Reply #66 on: October 16, 2009, 06:59:34 PM »

I got your email, Steve (that you sent 5 days ago, he he). Very nice. A Sicilian L21. I can already see that he has nothing in common with me or Bonnet, the 2 North Italian L21's. How does he match the L21+ P66+ haplotype, which was reported to be from an Italian? And is he P66+, by any wild chance? That would really be something.

No, he isn't P66+, nor does he match that P66+ haplotype. His nearest haplotype neighbors are Scottish and Irish, but that's at 37 markers, so I'm not sure how much it means. He is sure of his Sicilian ancestry.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2009, 06:59:53 PM by rms2 » Logged

argiedude
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« Reply #67 on: October 17, 2009, 01:46:38 PM »

In the last 12 months, during which FTDNA has been testing for L21, I figure the Sicily Project has added 20 R1b1b2 samples, and the North Italy Project 10. Of these, we've had 1 L21+ hit in Sicily and 2 L21+ in North Italy.

So, judging from this very limited sampling so far, we've got:

L21+ is 5% of Sicily's R1b1b2
L21+ is 1% of Sicily's y-dna

L21+ is 20% of North Italy's R1b1b2
L21+ is 10% of North Italy's y-dna
« Last Edit: October 17, 2009, 01:49:38 PM by argiedude » Logged

y-dna: R1b L21
mtdna: U5
rms2
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« Reply #68 on: October 18, 2009, 08:02:09 AM »

We have several Italian guys (at least they have Italian surnames) who show up on the Y-DNA Matches pages of some of our members, and a few of them joined the project after I wrote them asking them to test for L21, but they haven't been tested for L21 yet.

There is one in particular who shows up on the Y-DNA Matches pages of a bunch of our members and who has some fairly close 37-marker matches with some of our members. The only fly in the ointment is that he also has a fairly close 37-marker match with a guy whom I know is U152+.

So, is he L21+ or U152+?

I don't know, but I wish he would order a test!
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #69 on: October 18, 2009, 08:43:48 AM »

Might be one of those critical mass things again.  People with roots in a country dont want to know unless there are already a good number of people from there with that marker already. I think its a case that most people who have a fixed identity dont want to risk that being challenged by DNA and so are much more likely to take a test which would put them among other people from the same background.  Maybe it will take 5 ot 6 L21s on the map to make L21 attractive to Italians.    ]
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #70 on: October 18, 2009, 09:39:43 AM »

20% of L21 among R1b in north Italy would make a lot of sense given the known Celtic movements.  There is L21 in Switzerland and adjacent parts of France and Germany.  Not as much as S28 but you would expect a reasonable L21 showing in north Italy.   
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #71 on: October 18, 2009, 11:37:34 AM »

Unfortunately these are all speculations. I think having demonstrated to Argiedude that Bonnet is of a clear French origin. Basile is very close to Irishmen and Scots and we can hypothesize a NPE happened in US. Without a test to some his close relative I think we should be very prudent. Argiedude is so far the unique Italian (or of Italian extraction) to be R-L21, and he is very close to German R-L21, then no Italian R-L21 so far from ancient times.
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Maliclavelli


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rms2
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« Reply #72 on: October 18, 2009, 12:59:10 PM »

Unfortunately these are all speculations. I think having demonstrated to Argiedude that Bonnet is of a clear French origin. Basile is very close to Irishmen and Scots and we can hypothesize a NPE happened in US. Without a test to some his close relative I think we should be very prudent. Argiedude is so far the unique Italian (or of Italian extraction) to be R-L21, and he is very close to German R-L21, then no Italian R-L21 so far from ancient times.

Argiedude has no one within a gd of 10 at 37 markers. How is he close to German R-L21*?
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #73 on: October 18, 2009, 01:35:10 PM »

I haven't now at hands his results, but I remember he has a very rare value (10 at DYS 19? or other) and only a German has. Unfortunately my home computer is out and now I am going home and I won't be able to answer you. His rare value demonstrates probably an ancient link with that German and I hypothesized that Italy could be the source of R-L21 in its ancient origin, but everything is for a Central European one.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #74 on: October 19, 2009, 08:34:23 AM »

Provencal origin perhaps would be more accurate.  The village in question (Mentoulles) is right on the Occitan/Piemontese language boundary.  So maybe NOT clearly French :).  And, considering the language my ancestor would have spoken when the Duke of Savoy's troops chased him out, the likelihood that he was autochtonous since Roman times or moved there after the 11th century CE are about even.

Perhaps when more French results are available some lines can be drawn between the oil/oc boundary?
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L2- L20- L21+ M153- M222- M37- P312+ P66- SRY2627- U152-  R1b1b2a1b5
mt Haplogroup H
H8G4P on ysearch and mito.
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