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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2009, 01:51:49 AM »

Certainly Bonnet is to-day a French surname, but Piedmont has had various historical events with political changes, with use of dialect  or of French language etc. I think it is important to know the place of origin of this Bonnet: either he is from those places or an immigrant from France. Anyway genetically Piedmont, Liguria, Provence have the same genetical background: Ligurians, then Roman Empire. Provence (Provincia) is the most "Italian" part of France.
The family of the great French painter Cezanne came from the Italian town of Cesana (Piedmont), which was probably his ancient surname. His origins (genetically speaking about the YDNA) are Italian or French? I think that Genetics must watch further.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2009, 02:22:38 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2009, 07:21:17 AM »

Certainly Bonnet is to-day a French surname, but Piedmont has had various historical events with political changes, with use of dialect  or of French language etc. I think it is important to know the place of origin of this Bonnet: either he is from those places or an immigrant from France. Anyway genetically Piedmont, Liguria, Provence have the same genetical background: Ligurians, then Roman Empire. Provence (Provincia) is the most "Italian" part of France.
The family of the great French painter Cezanne came from the Italian town of Cesana (Piedmont), which was probably his ancient surname. His origins (genetically speaking about the YDNA) are Italian or French? I think that Genetics must watch further.


Mr. Bonnet has not joined the project yet, so I haven't had a chance to see his information or discuss any of this with him. What you wrote is interesting. I'm sure you are right and there was a great deal of give-and-take between the regions.

It is heartening to me to see a second northern Italian result.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2009, 08:13:55 AM »

Beyond Bonnet of North Italian Project, who has his most distant ancestor in Daniel Bonnet (“b. 1658 fled Piedmont Italy”), there is a Bennett, tested by SMGF (see now Ysearch: R6XZE), who has is most distant ancestor in John Jean Bennett, b. 14 Mar 1788 Angrogna, Turin, Italy. But on www.familysearch.org we find a Daniel Bonnet, born about 1644 Angrogna, Turin. Probably Angrogna is the birthplace of all these Bonnet/Bennett, even though they are so distant  genetically that they haven’t  a recent relatedness.  It is clear that who submitted his ancestors to SMGf didn’t remember the original surname. It is possible that these Bonnet, living in Valpellice, where many Waldensians took refuge, have a French ancestry.
To-day, on 88 Bonnet on the Italian phone directory  (2000), 5 are living in Angrogna.
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Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2009, 08:49:06 AM »

Angrogna, già feudo dei Luserna, fu elevata a Marchesato nel 1636 sotto Emanuele Manfredi di Luserna. Con l'inaugurazione del culto pubblico ebbero inizio però anche dure persecuzioni nei confronti dei suoi seguaci. Divenuto nel 1680 il comune più popolato delle valli con 2.250 abitanti, nel corso del XVII secolo, quando la persecuzione verso i valdesi si fece più feroce, venne più volte distrutto. Nel 1686, Vittorio Amedeo II in accordo con la politica di Luigi XIV, re di Francia, iniziò la sistematica espulsione dei valdesi dalle loro valli. Angrogna venne colpita molto duramente: le truppe locali distrussero le case dei valdesi, i terreni espropriati e ceduti ad altri agricoltori cattolici provenienti da altre parti del Piemonte. Dopo la conciliazione con Vittorio Amedeo i valdesi tornarono nel paese, ma il borgo non raggiunse mai più la grandezza e l'importanza svolta prima delle persecuzioni.

Angrogna è un comune bireligioso e bilingue: parte della popolazione è di religione valdese ed è ancora molto diffuso l'uso dell'occitano.




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Maliclavelli


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rms2
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« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2009, 02:38:23 PM »

Interesting. If you recall Gignoux, an R-L21* whose ancestor came from Grenoble, the Gignoux surname is also listed as a Waldensian surname.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #30 on: June 02, 2009, 06:37:30 PM »

Interesting. If you recall Gignoux, an R-L21* whose ancestor came from Grenoble, the Gignoux surname is also listed as a Waldensian surname.
Yes, I see the Waldensian movement is thought to have started in Lyon, France (south central,) in the Rhone valley.     Well, I guess France wasn't called "Gaul" for nothing.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2009, 09:14:46 PM by Mike » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
GoldenHind
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« Reply #31 on: June 02, 2009, 07:56:45 PM »

The offspring of wandering Irish monks were heretics?
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seevargr
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« Reply #32 on: June 02, 2009, 08:20:59 PM »

OK so I'm the other North Italian L-21+.  I joined the group at FTDNA.  My genealogical research points to a Waldensian origin for my Bonnett ancestor who fled the Piedmont for Baden.  His son Jean-Jacques Bonnett then migrated to the New World (Pennsylvania).
There's one Bonnette besides me on my surname group at FTDNA but he's a Cajun and he's completely unrelated to me in an historical timeframe.  I've only met 2 other Bonnetts (with my spelling) one was Maltese and one was Cherokee.

And what do wandering Irish monks have to do with being the first people to translate the Bible into French?
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L2- L20- L21+ M153- M222- M37- P312+ P66- SRY2627- U152-  R1b1b2a1b5
mt Haplogroup H
H8G4P on ysearch and mito.
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« Reply #33 on: June 02, 2009, 08:47:23 PM »

OK so I'm the other North Italian L-21+.  I joined the group at FTDNA.  My genealogical research points to a Waldensian origin for my Bonnett ancestor who fled the Piedmont for Baden.  His son Jean-Jacques Bonnett then migrated to the New World (Pennsylvania).
There's one Bonnette besides me on my surname group at FTDNA but he's a Cajun and he's completely unrelated to me in an historical timeframe.  I've only met 2 other Bonnetts (with my spelling) one was Maltese and one was Cherokee.

And what do wandering Irish monks have to do with being the first people to translate the Bible into French?


Thanks for joining!

That remark about Irish monks was just a lighthearted jest. It is a reference to the claims of some that L21 originated in Ireland.
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #34 on: June 02, 2009, 10:42:27 PM »

Or if not that, if you carried a beaker coming into Ireland. Chessy, I know.
 
[/quote]
That remark about Irish monks was just a lighthearted jest. It is a reference to the claims of some that L21 originated in Ireland.
[/quote]




And what do wandering Irish monks have to do with being the first people to translate the Bible into French?

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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
rms2
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« Reply #35 on: June 03, 2009, 07:34:27 AM »

OK so I'm the other North Italian L-21+.  I joined the group at FTDNA.  My genealogical research points to a Waldensian origin for my Bonnett ancestor who fled the Piedmont for Baden.  His son Jean-Jacques Bonnett then migrated to the New World (Pennsylvania).
There's one Bonnette besides me on my surname group at FTDNA but he's a Cajun and he's completely unrelated to me in an historical timeframe.  I've only met 2 other Bonnetts (with my spelling) one was Maltese and one was Cherokee.

And what do wandering Irish monks have to do with being the first people to translate the Bible into French?


Once again, thanks for joining the R-L21 Plus Project. We are very glad to have you as a member.

I would have expanded on what I posted above last night, but just as I was posting it, the thunderstorm we were experiencing went somewhat extreme, so I had to shut my computer down. Then we lost power, so I gave it up and went to bed.

Anyway, Goldenhind's joke about Irish monks was a reference to the fact that a couple of people have tried to attribute L21 on the European Continent to randy Irish monks, despite their vows of celibacy. It's pretty obvious your ancestor was not Irish nor the progeny of an Irish monk.

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Jafety R1b-U152
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« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2009, 08:54:47 AM »

If many more L21 appears in North Italy but none south of Tuscany we may start discussion about L21 being Celtic and U152 being Italic (not exclusively, only usually). What do you think?
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Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b4 (S28/U-152) L2 test pending
Earliest known paternal ancestor: Matthias Fejer, b. 1819, Jaszarokszallas, Jasz county, Central Hungary
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #37 on: June 10, 2009, 09:24:11 AM »

What I am writing on the topic re the origin of R-U106 from Italy (my hypothesis about the haploblocks in the YDNA has been used in the Adriano's spreadsheet underlining by a different color these guys) demonstrates that some S116, U106 and U152 are related to these haploblocks. So far no R-M222 and R-M167 are related, demonstrating probably a different origin (R-M167 could come from the Spanish refugium from an ancient R1b1b2 who wintered there and not in Italy). We must examine the R-L21 (ancestors of R-M222) among the R-S116 of the Adriano’s spreadsheet.
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Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #38 on: June 10, 2009, 09:36:21 AM »

There is no relation between this haploblock and R-L21, then I think that also R-L21 was born inn the Italian Refugium and then only from those who migrated to West (South France and Spain then to the British Isles)) was born R-222. In the same group, from some R-S116, was born In South France or Spain R-M153 and R-M167. This was my first theory I exposed also criticizing a paper of Spanish scholars on "dna-forums", when I could write on it.
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Maliclavelli


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rms2
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« Reply #39 on: June 10, 2009, 07:12:03 PM »

If many more L21 appears in North Italy but none south of Tuscany we may start discussion about L21 being Celtic and U152 being Italic (not exclusively, only usually). What do you think?

I think both U152 and L21 are Celtic, founded by related males who may have been Genghis Khan-type leaders among the early Bronze Age Celts.
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susanrosine
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« Reply #40 on: June 11, 2009, 11:49:46 AM »

If many more L21 appears in North Italy but none south of Tuscany we may start discussion about L21 being Celtic and U152 being Italic (not exclusively, only usually). What do you think?

I think both U152 and L21 are Celtic, founded by related males who may have been Genghis Khan-type leaders among the early Bronze Age Celts.
L21 MUST be Celtic, just due to its large numbers in Ireland, Wales, Scotland, England.
I can only speak for my Wales DNA project when I say that so far U152 is "rare" in Wales.  Which doesn't mean it isn't Celtic. Remember the Celts were not one unified "nation". It appears whichever Celts had U152 among them, they didn't travel to Wales in great numbers.
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Dad: JAMES:  Ysearch QSCQ3;  R-P312, L21+ (R1b1b2a1b5*)
Dad: mitosearch QSCQ3; T1a; no matches HVR2 or FGS
Mom's brother: LEWTER: Ysearch FYFDA;  R-U106, L48+ (R1b1b2a1a*)
Mom's brother: mitosearch FYFDA, U5b2; 1 exac
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« Reply #41 on: June 11, 2009, 08:38:42 PM »


L21 MUST be Celtic, just due to its large numbers in Ireland, Wales, Scotland, England.
I can only speak for my Wales DNA project when I say that so far U152 is "rare" in Wales.  Which doesn't mean it isn't Celtic. Remember the Celts were not one unified "nation". It appears whichever Celts had U152 among them, they didn't travel to Wales in great numbers.


Would that things were that easy!

There is a movement afoot these days to deny that the Celts of the British Isles were "true Celts". The idea is that the indigenous peoples of the British Isles were in place by the Mesolithic Period, haven't changed much in their basic genetic composition since then, and "became Celtic" through a mysterious process that involved the acceptance of a "cultural package" rather than through a massive influx of foreigners.

In the minds of those who like this sort of thing, we are prime candidates for the role of "British aborigines". I strongly suspect that one thing some like about it is that it frees their own clades to be the conquering "invaders" who lorded it over the downtrodden natives.

Some L21 guys play right into their hands by advocating the idea that L21 arose in the British Isles.

Two problems for the "aborigine" crowd is that L21 does not appear to be much older than 3,000 years and is turning up in some numbers on the Continent.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2009, 08:39:52 PM by rms2 » Logged

argiedude
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« Reply #42 on: August 29, 2009, 04:13:54 PM »

OK so I'm the other North Italian L-21+.  I joined the group at FTDNA.  My genealogical research points to a Waldensian origin for my Bonnett ancestor who fled the Piedmont for Baden.  His son Jean-Jacques Bonnett then migrated to the New World (Pennsylvania).

I understand this expulsion happened in 1700 and they went to Rhineland. I'm starting to doubt this result, because of its being L21. Can this sample be placed in any of the L21 clusters? If it falls into a cluster found in Rhineland or somewhere around there...

Apologies to Bonnet about my doubts. I have no idea about how reliable or not genealogy really is.
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y-dna: R1b L21
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rms2
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« Reply #43 on: August 29, 2009, 06:02:56 PM »

OK so I'm the other North Italian L-21+.  I joined the group at FTDNA.  My genealogical research points to a Waldensian origin for my Bonnett ancestor who fled the Piedmont for Baden.  His son Jean-Jacques Bonnett then migrated to the New World (Pennsylvania).

I understand this expulsion happened in 1700 and they went to Rhineland. I'm starting to doubt this result, because of its being L21. Can this sample be placed in any of the L21 clusters? If it falls into a cluster found in Rhineland or somewhere around there...

Apologies to Bonnet about my doubts. I have no idea about how reliable or not genealogy really is.

Why would you doubt it? Bonnet has a Savoyard French surname, and there are plenty of French R-L21*. His family history links his ancestor to a religious group that began in the area of Lyons in France.

He has only 25 markers and no exact matches or even one-offs at that level, either in YSearch or otherwise (H8G4P).

I don't regard anything else as a close match at 25 markers. The haplotype neighbors he does have are either confirmed R1b1b2a1b5 or seem likely to be.

The haplotype is pretty WAMHish except for 390=26, 389-2=17, and 437=14, unless I missed something. If he belongs to a cluster, that must be a key part of it, but, like I said, he has only 25 markers.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 06:31:38 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #44 on: August 29, 2009, 06:43:26 PM »

argiedude -

If you are saying you doubt that Bonnet is Italian, no problem. I think he is more French than Italian myself, but I put him in the Italy category based on where his most distant y-dna ancestor was born.

I guess I could ask him if he thinks I should switch him to the France category. After all, I put Llansó in the Spain category, even though his most distant y-dna ancestor was born in France.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 07:05:09 PM by rms2 » Logged

Mike Walsh
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« Reply #45 on: August 29, 2009, 11:34:05 PM »

I understand this expulsion happened in 1700 and they went to Rhineland. I'm starting to doubt this result, because of its being L21. Can this sample be placed in any of the L21 clusters? If it falls into a cluster found in Rhineland or somewhere around there...

Apologies to Bonnet about my doubts. I have no idea about how reliable or not genealogy really is.
I've been looking at a lot of R-L21* haplotypes and I have to agree with RMS2.  I have no reason to think that Bonnet's haplotype isn't R-L21*.

There is a group of about 9-10 R-L21* that have 437=14 389ii-i=17.  Bonnet is one of them.   There are two other guys that also have 390>WAMH.   These are all slow to medium speed markers.

H8G4P   Bonnet - Cisalpine Italy
FG6UV   Krueger - Ger North
A9ZQZ   Mackay - Sco Strathclyde

Regardless, I personally don't have any close matches in Ysearch either at 67 markers.  It would be nice if we had 67 markers for H8G4P to look at, but I have no reason to suspect that his L21+ result is in error.

As far as geographic based clusters for R-L21*.  I've commented elsewhere on this, but I'm not seeing a real strong geographic affinity amongst the clusters.  In fact, I'd say quite the opposite, at least so far.
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« Reply #46 on: September 30, 2009, 11:05:18 AM »

I regard the genealogical data as reliable but, honestly everything beyond the lifespan on one's oldest living relation is sketchy (and someties you can't even trust your relatives!). 

In my case the strongest data are that the Bonnetts I am descended from are the offspring of Jean-Jacques Bonnett of Friedrichstahl, Baden.  He was certainly a Protestant so I just assumed he was a Hugenot for a long time.  His descendants in the first generation, at least, married in Lutheran or Reformed churches in America.  I assumed he was a refugee or offspring of refugees because he had a French name, wasn't Catholic and was in Germany.  I found the Bonnett name on a list of Waldensian surnames and looking further (thank the Mormons), there are church records in F-stahl that record the story of Daniel Bonnett leaving Mentoulles and the timing is right. 

Now, it's a French-speaking place that's part of Italy now.  So should anyone of Savoyard or Genoese origin be considered French "or" Italian?  Put them on both lists, just makes sense.  Now, as far as when did they get there?  Were they immigrants from France?  I don't think that matters because there was cultural continuity across Lyon/Cote d'azure/Savoy anyway, and the Waldensian movement was spread throughout.  If L-21+ are the bell-beaker people, didn't the Amesbury Archer come from Alpine Switzerland?  So why couldn't some of those people have gone south?  Plutarch (and yes I stole this from wikipedia) has an interesting reference to a Gaulish tribe's war-cry being the same as the ancient name of the Ligurians' homeland.  So maybe there's a Ligurian element to L-21+ results in Northern Italy.  There have been so many wars and invasions crossing the top of the boot from all directions that the pressence of any European or Mediterranean marker should be no surprise.

Frankly the more lists I am on the more likely someone will associate me with some cluster or other and I leave that to people that are better with Excel than I.  I'm debating the 67-marker test, but strongly suspect that unless a few thousand more people get tested I am unlikely to find any more matches any time soon even with that test. 

The haplotype is pretty WAMHish except for 390=26, 389-2=17, and 437=14, unless I missed something. If he belongs to a cluster, that must be a key part of it, but, like I said, he has only 25 markers.

I have noticed this too, so really the utility for me to do the test is more to provide you all with data and hope that you can answer my questions.
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« Reply #47 on: September 30, 2009, 02:07:15 PM »

....  I'm debating the 67-marker test, but strongly suspect that unless a few thousand more people get tested I am unlikely to find any more matches any time soon even with that test.  ....
I highly recommend the 67 marker upgrade for people like us in the R-L21* group.  There are just so many of us that are closely related (at the deep ancestry level,) as evidenced by how many of us have the Western Atlantic modal characteristics.    In my personal case, I found that my matches on my first 12 markers actually misled me as to origination.   25 markers matches pretty much didn't tell me anything either.  At 37 markers a new guy showed up.   When I went to 67 markers the new guy at 37 plus several others all from the same geography and same ethnic surnames showed up.  From that we determined a signature and found a few more people that match the cluster.  The key was that my "important markers" turned out to be in FTDNA's 38-67 panel.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2009, 02:17:52 PM by Mike » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
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« Reply #48 on: October 10, 2009, 09:58:58 PM »

A new R-L21* has appeared in the Sicily Project (kit 11217 - scroll down quite a ways):

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Sicily/default.aspx?section=yresults

I am trying to recruit him for the R-L21 Plus Project.

Awesome!
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« Reply #49 on: October 10, 2009, 11:21:12 PM »

A new R-L21* has appeared in the Sicily Project (kit 11217 - scroll down quite a ways):

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Sicily/default.aspx?section=yresults

I am trying to recruit him for the R-L21 Plus Project.

Awesome!

He joined!

The surname is Basile, and his most distant ancestor came from near Catania in eastern Sicily. He's our southernmost project member thus far.
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