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Author Topic: Italian R-L21*  (Read 10030 times)
rms2
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« on: April 04, 2009, 06:43:00 PM »

I just got news of the first confirmed Italian R-L21*. I know the man (via the internet anyway). Now I'm just waiting for him to join the R-L21 Plus Project. His most distant y ancestor came from Como in Lombardy in the far north of Italy.

This is good news!

You can see the result and haplotype here (kit 129964):

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/northitaly/default.aspx?section=yresults
« Last Edit: April 04, 2009, 06:45:12 PM by rms2 » Logged

GoldenHind
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« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2009, 06:59:31 PM »

I just got news of the first confirmed Italian R-L21*. I know the man (via the internet anyway). Now I'm just waiting for him to join the R-L21 Plus Project. His most distant y ancestor came from Como in Lombardy in the far north of Italy.

This is good news!

You can see the result and haplotype here (kit 129964):

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/northitaly/default.aspx?section=yresults
I look forward to hearing inventive theories of how his ancestors got to northern Italy from Britain.
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rms2
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« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2009, 07:09:18 PM »


I look forward to hearing inventive theories of how his ancestors got to northern Italy from Britain.

Yes, that should be interesting. I'm sure it will be forthcoming.

We're getting a nice little group on the R-L21* Map in and about Switzerland, the French Alps, and, now, Northern Italy.

There are a lot of un-SNP-tested Northern Italians in the North Italy Project. I wish they would all do the Deep Clade-R thing.
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rms2
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« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2009, 09:20:39 PM »

I look forward to hearing inventive theories of how his ancestors got to northern Italy from Britain.

I forgot to mention that those stories will have to be exceptionally inventive, because this man has a very unusual haplotype, with no close matches at all (YSearch X56RP).
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2009, 12:27:18 PM »

I just got news of the first confirmed Italian R-L21*. I know the man (via the internet anyway). Now I'm just waiting for him to join the R-L21 Plus Project. His most distant y ancestor came from Como in Lombardy in the far north of Italy.

This is good news!

You can see the result and haplotype here (kit 129964):

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/northitaly/default.aspx?section=yresults
I look forward to hearing inventive theories of how his ancestors got to northern Italy from Britain.
Like in the short story of the king and his groom it could be true the contrary too.
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Maliclavelli


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MtDNA: K1a1b1e

rms2
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« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2009, 01:09:09 PM »

Like in the short story of the king and his groom it could be true the contrary too.

He certainly has a unique haplotype.

Our Northern Italian R-L21* has not joined the R-L21 Plus Project yet. That is very frustrating for me.

I look on it as a research project, not a social club, and it is hard to get a complete picture without all the available data. The fact that not all L21+ guys join the project or even create YSearch entries is very frustrating. I also know for a fact that not all the R-L21*s in YSearch are listed as R1b1b2a1b5.

Sigh . . .

The fact that genetic genealogy is a slow-moving hobby is aggravating enough, but when you can't get access to the data that is already there, that makes things even worse.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2009, 01:30:59 PM »

Like in the short story of the king and his groom it could be true the contrary too.

He certainly has a unique haplotype.

Our Northern Italian R-L21* has not joined the R-L21 Plus Project yet. That is very frustrating for me.

I look on it as a research project, not a social club, and it is hard to get a complete picture without all the available data. The fact that not all L21+ guys join the project or even create YSearch entries is very frustrating. I also know for a fact that not all the R-L21*s in YSearch are listed as R1b1b2a1b5.

Sigh . . .

The fact that genetic genealogy is a slow-moving hobby is aggravating enough, but when you can't get access to the data that is already there, that makes things even worse.
I take the liberty of pointing out to you an Australian of German descent very close to this Italian, at least for having the rare DYS19=10: Ysearch ID 2F6UD. His surname is Richter and comes from a town a little bit at North of Berlin, then not from South Germany, as we could expect. I suppose he is too R-L21, but it would be necessary a test for being sure. We cannot know which is his ancient origin, if from South Germany or elsewhere, but probably he is one of the Easter R-L21 known so far, of course if he was confirmed.
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Maliclavelli


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rms2
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« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2009, 01:42:35 PM »

I take the liberty of pointing out to you an Australian of German descent very close to this Italian, at least for having the rare DYS19=10: Ysearch ID 2F6UD. His surname is Richter and comes from a town a little bit at North of Berlin, then not from South Germany, as we could expect. I suppose he is too R-L21, but it would be necessary a test for being sure. We cannot know which is his ancient origin, if from South Germany or elsewhere, but probably he is one of the Easter R-L21 known so far, of course if he was confirmed.

I ran that surname in the World Names Profiler (http://www.publicprofiler.org/worldnames/Main.aspx), and it is most common in Eastern Germany, although it is apparently well represented all over that country.

It is interesting that the one other person we know of thus far with DYS19=10 is a German.
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rms2
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« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2009, 02:18:08 PM »

All right! Our Northern Italian R-L21* man just joined the R-L21 Plus Project!

Apparently he is very concerned about his privacy, so his surname is not listed on the R-L21* Map (unless and until he gives me permission to do so).

Personally, I don't understand the privacy issue so much, but I will respect it.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2009, 12:39:02 PM »

I take the liberty of pointing out to you an Australian of German descent very close to this Italian, at least for having the rare DYS19=10: Ysearch ID 2F6UD. His surname is Richter and comes from a town a little bit at North of Berlin, then not from South Germany, as we could expect. I suppose he is too R-L21, but it would be necessary a test for being sure. We cannot know which is his ancient origin, if from South Germany or elsewhere, but probably he is one of the Easter R-L21 known so far, of course if he was confirmed.

I ran that surname in the World Names Profiler (http://www.publicprofiler.org/worldnames/Main.aspx), and it is most common in Eastern Germany, although it is apparently well represented all over that country.

It is interesting that the one other person we know of thus far with DYS19=10 is a German.
I don't know if the Smith (HT979) close to Richter for having DYS19=10 is of English descent or if he is an original "Schmidt", but certainly, having found another man genetically close to Richter with DYS19=12, I think we can suppose that DYS19=10 hasn't been a multistep mutation. This strengthens the hypothesis of the ancientness of this haplotype. This man is a Dunn, an American  (YBMC3).
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Maliclavelli


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argiedude
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« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2009, 07:12:03 PM »

Hi, I'm argiedude, and I'm the recent L21+ from Como, Lombardy. I just wanted to say thanks to Steve for prodding me to get tested. Remember all that? I'm really glad I did. To top it off, I got a result that is very interesting and special. Huge thanks to you, Steve! And Happy Easter to everyone.
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y-dna: R1b L21
mtdna: U5
rms2
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« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2009, 07:24:24 PM »

Hi, I'm argiedude, and I'm the recent L21+ from Como, Lombardy. I just wanted to say thanks to Steve for prodding me to get tested. Remember all that? I'm really glad I did. To top it off, I got a result that is very interesting and special. Huge thanks to you, Steve! And Happy Easter to everyone.

Thanks, argiedude! I am overjoyed - really! - that you turned out to be L21+. Besides the fact that I think you are a great guy, I know you are very intelligent and knowledgeable, as well. I look forward to you turning your considerable brain power on L21 and its riddles.
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vtilroe
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« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2009, 07:47:20 PM »

This isn't necessarily L21*, but a Ysearch entry exists for an abbreviated haplotype from the P66+ lab reference at Houston: BZDPB.
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rms2
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« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2009, 06:31:10 AM »

This isn't necessarily L21*, but a Ysearch entry exists for an abbreviated haplotype from the P66+ lab reference at Houston: BZDPB.


I'm wondering how Gioiello determined that was the P66+ sample, since apparently he got that haplotype from SMGF's database.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2009, 08:29:23 AM »



I'm wondering how Gioiello determined that was the P66+ sample, since apparently he got that haplotype from SMGF's database.
[/quote]

I phoned to Gioiello Tognoni, who is one of my closest friends. He says that he doesn’t remember when he extracted that haplotype from SMGF, probably some time ago, but he is a serious person, very interested on Genetics and Genealogy and he never did anything that wasn’t serious, and if he put that haplotype on Ysearch, he really found it on SMGF. But now, searching for that haplotype, he has seen that it isn’t no more on SMGF. He thinks that someone has deleted it, and he doesn’t know why. It is also strange  that that haplotype had only “those” 18 markers, and he think that from this we can search for the lab which tested it. If he would have wanted to cook up something, why only those markers? He is sure that that guy wasn’t tested from SMGF (which tests always 43 markers) but from another lab and probably for other reasons than for genealogy. Searching for some guy close to that haplotype, he found many from Central- North-West Europe and an Italian close to him, he put on ysearch (YRYEQ).
« Last Edit: April 10, 2009, 08:39:37 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2009, 01:23:53 PM »

My friend Gioiello Tognoni has found in his computer this posting, dated 10.11.08:

Thank you for creating an account with ysearch!
Last Name: P66 
User ID: BZDPB
Password: xxxxxxx 
Contact Person: Gioiello Tognoni
You can make changes or delete the record at www.Ysearch.org by clicking on the "Edit an Existing User" tab. Once you've made the changes don't forget to save by clicking on the "Save Information" button, at the end of the page. The "Delete" button is at the bottom of that page.
This email was sent to gioiello.tognoni@gmail.com

Probably P66 was the "name" of the guy tested and at that date he was of course on SMGF. There isn't the first time that a surname and its data are deleted.
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Maliclavelli


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argiedude
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« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2009, 02:24:55 PM »

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/genealogy-dna/2008-05/1210363593

"The basic Y-STR markers and DYS464X have also been running but they cannot be published for privacy reasons.

Thomas Krahn"

That was in reference to FTDNA discovering that M37, P66, and M65 were derived for P312. The haplotype of the only known P66+ sample isn't publicly available.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2009, 03:40:21 PM »

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/genealogy-dna/2008-05/1210363593

"The basic Y-STR markers and DYS464X have also been running but they cannot be published for privacy reasons.

Thomas Krahn"

That was in reference to FTDNA discovering that M37, P66, and M65 were derived for P312. The haplotype of the only known P66+ sample isn't publicly available.
I must think that someone put those data on SMGF and after he deleted them. Someone who have access to SMGF's labs or offices. We cannot put data on SMGF as on Ysearch and my friend Gioiello Tognoni is reliable and he cannot be suspected.
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Maliclavelli


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rms2
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« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2009, 03:57:38 PM »


I phoned to Gioiello Tognoni, who is one of my closest friends. He says that he doesn’t remember when he extracted that haplotype from SMGF, probably some time ago, but he is a serious person, very interested on Genetics and Genealogy and he never did anything that wasn’t serious, and if he put that haplotype on Ysearch, he really found it on SMGF. But now, searching for that haplotype, he has seen that it isn’t no more on SMGF. He thinks that someone has deleted it, and he doesn’t know why. It is also strange  that that haplotype had only “those” 18 markers, and he think that from this we can search for the lab which tested it. If he would have wanted to cook up something, why only those markers? He is sure that that guy wasn’t tested from SMGF (which tests always 43 markers) but from another lab and probably for other reasons than for genealogy. Searching for some guy close to that haplotype, he found many from Central- North-West Europe and an Italian close to him, he put on ysearch (YRYEQ).

I was NOT implying that Gioiello did anything wrong or dishonest. I was just wondering how he figured out that was the P66+ sample.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2009, 03:58:10 PM by rms2 » Logged

vtilroe
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« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2009, 12:12:03 AM »

Well, was it added before or after this post on Rootsweb GENEALOGY-DNA?
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/genealogy-dna/2008-11/1226271823
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2009, 01:40:04 AM »

Well, was it added before or after this post on Rootsweb GENEALOGY-DNA?
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/genealogy-dna/2008-11/1226271823

Many thanks, Tilroe. Now everything is clear: probably Gioiello found those data on Rootsweb and put them on Ysearch using SMGF. But his data were true.
Anyway I have the proof that SMGF, sometime, deletes surnames and data. Certainly wasn't this the case.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2009, 01:41:11 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2009, 04:19:16 AM »

Bit off-topic, but it is interesting to see that L21 people who shared his mtDNA is also U5. It is a bit strange if you consider that mtDNA Hg H is around 40% all over Europe. Especially that L21 goes with U5 in both the British Isles and Italy (I do not want to generalize from 3 or 4 examples but it is still interesting)
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Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b4 (S28/U-152) L2 test pending
Earliest known paternal ancestor: Matthias Fejer, b. 1819, Jaszarokszallas, Jasz county, Central Hungary
MtDNA: U4 (Western Siberian Ugric)
argiedude
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« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2009, 09:46:08 PM »

My deep clade's in! P66- M37- M222-. I'm officially L21*.

Just a brief recap. P66+ has been found only in an Italian, so I had the best chances yet of being P66+. Oh well...
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y-dna: R1b L21
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rms2
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« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2009, 07:49:55 PM »

My deep clade's in! P66- M37- M222-. I'm officially L21*.

Just a brief recap. P66+ has been found only in an Italian, so I had the best chances yet of being P66+. Oh well...


Congratulations!

Now we need more Italians!
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rms2
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« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2009, 08:03:51 PM »

A new Italian R-L21* has shown up in the North Italy Project (kit N46295) here.

The surname is Bonnet, which is most common in France (World Names Profiler identifies it as a French surname). One of the places it is most common is right next door to Italy in Provence-Alpes-Côte-d'Azur.

I'm trying to recruit him for the R-L21 Plus Project.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2009, 08:06:14 PM by rms2 » Logged

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