Italian R-L21*

[Mikewww]

Only a very small amount of Normans though although that still represents an impressive hit rate for L21 testing in the area.  I am still a pessimist when it comes to STR matching.  With numbers so low everwhere and the database very biased to the isles and to a lesser degree some other areas it still will have a lot to do with  chance.

Oh, I agree. I'm pessimistic about STR matching and clustering, too. In my opinion, a lot of folks are involved in finding clusters who probably shouldn't be (I mean no offense), and that includes myself. There are very few people who are good at it, Ken Nordtvedt being one, but he's a genius, and few of us can measure up to that standard.

That is not to say there are no haplotype clusters out there; there are, but they should be distinctive, verifiable, easily recognized, and we should be careful about labeling them too quickly.

This may come as a surprise, but I am pessimistic about STR matching and clustering as well.

I'm not pessimistic on R-L21 type folks (or any type folks for that matter) to figure things out.  Impatience and necessity are the mothers of invention. Much of this is heuristic.  You have to try something then you can validate it or reject it and move on.  Even if a suspected variety is just a rough possibility, it might help in doing things like selecting WTY testees or focusing investigation of genealogical ties.

There really is an Irish T3 (which Ken identified/verified as you know), an O Callas clan, Scots super-group, 17-14-10 group, Leinster group (Ken also was in on this), the EE Askhenazi, etc, etc.

Now as far as 11-13 Combo group and a few others, we are really running thin on markers.  Within the 11-13 combo group there are several sub-varieties that have a lot STR's matching.  I don't think the 11-13 group is really Norman, at least as a whole, but there are quite a number of 11-13 who claim Norman background.  The Normans are probably quite a mix of varieties and Hg's anyway.

[alan trowel hands.]

I think the main limitations are the fact most clusters are isles with very little from the rest of Europe.  That has simply got to be down to the relatively small sample of 67 marker proven L21s across much of Europe.

[Mikewww]

Probably his surname is Basile, but probably his origin not. He is very close to XEQXQ (Mac Neill) and probably his genetical origins are from Ireland.

I've been looking at the Italians and sorting any which way I can think to see who picks up with them.

Maliclavelli, did you say you knew the unknown guy with kit 129964?

I'd love to see what alleles he would come out with at 481, 406s1 and 444.  I have no explanation for his 19/394=10.  Perhaps an unusual circumstance happened at 19 that can't be explained by a step-wise mutational model.

However, there are few guys that a have the very slow 426=13 off-modal.  Possibly he could fall into one camp or another of that off-modal set.

[rms2]

Provencal origin perhaps would be more accurate.  The village in question (Mentoulles) is right on the Occitan/Piemontese language boundary.  So maybe NOT clearly French :).  And, considering the language my ancestor would have spoken when the Duke of Savoy's troops chased him out, the likelihood that he was autochtonous since Roman times or moved there after the 11th century CE are about even.

Perhaps when more French results are available some lines can be drawn between the oil/oc boundary?

I think we are bound to see more Northern Italian R-L21* sooner or later. It's just a matter of more Deep Clade-R testing. Unfortunately, our funds are severely limited, or we could pay to test some Italians.

I'm not saying R-L21* will be as common in Italy as the U152 clades are, but I don't think it's ultra-rare there. After all, the one P66+ guy in the whole world is from Italy (we just don't know who he is), and P66 is downstream of L21.

[Maliclavelli]

"Maliclavelli, did you say you knew the unknown guy with kit 129964?"

He is Argiedude, an Argentinian of Italian extraction (and French by the mother side). He is a very young and clever guy, who writes here, on "Genealogy-DNA",  "Dienekes blog", "dna-forums", and probably elsewhere. I don't know his true surname, as he won't it is known. I was said it is a typical Lombard surname and for us Italians the Lombard surname par excellence is Brambilla, but probably there are many others.
Actually his DYS19=10 could be thought as a multistep mutation, but in the past I wrote on this forum that I found some individual with DYS19=11 and 12, and I think it isn't a multistep mutation. This let me think to the possibility that R-L21 could be born in Italy, if Argiedude is Italian from many thousands of years, but now I think to a Central European origin. For this I said he is close to a German.

[argiedude]

Probably his surname is Basile, but probably his origin not. He is very close to XEQXQ (Mac Neill) and probably his genetical origins are from Ireland.

I've been looking at the Italians and sorting any which way I can think to see who picks up with them.

Maliclavelli, did you say you knew the unknown guy with kit 129964?

That's me, argiedude. My y-dna is from Como, just north of Milan.

I hope you can make some sense of it all. You have 4 samples to work with.

1) Mine, with the weird haplotype.
2) Bonnet, also from North Italy.
3) The P66+ guy, from central Italy.
4) Basile, from Sicily.

I'd love to see what alleles he would come out with at 481, 406s1 and 444.  I have no explanation for his 19/394=10.  Perhaps an unusual circumstance happened at 19 that can't be explained by a step-wise mutational model.

Do these markers define British-only clusters or not?


Check out the North Italy results:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/northitaly/default.aspx?section=yresults

Notice there are some 20 samples in the non-descript R1b1b2 category, and another 20 with detailed subhaplogroups in green in several categories (U152, U106, L21, etc.). Odds are there are a couple of L21 amongst those reddish R1b1b2 samples, which were entered back when FTDNA didn't test for L21.

[Mikewww]

Probably his surname is Basile, but probably his origin not. He is very close to XEQXQ (Mac Neill) and probably his genetical origins are from Ireland.

I've been looking at the Italians and sorting any which way I can think to see who picks up with them.  Maliclavelli, did you say you knew the unknown guy with kit 129964?

That's me, argiedude. My y-dna is from Como, just north of Milan.
I hope you can make some sense of it all. You have 4 samples to work with.
1) Mine, with the weird haplotype.
2) Bonnet, also from North Italy.
3) The P66+ guy, from central Italy.
4) Basile, from Sicily.

I'd love to see what alleles he would come out with at 481, 406s1 and 444.  I have no explanation for his 19/394=10.  Perhaps an unusual circumstance happened at 19 that can't be explained by a step-wise mutational model.

Do these markers define British-only clusters or not?
Check out the North Italy results:
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/northitaly/default.aspx?section=yresults
Notice there are some 20 samples in the non-descript R1b1b2 category, and another 20 with detailed subhaplogroups in green in several categories (U152, U106, L21, etc.). Odds are there are a couple of L21 amongst those reddish R1b1b2 samples, which were entered back when FTDNA didn't test for L21.

No, I do not think these markers define "British-only" clusters.  I just think the prevalence of testing in the British Isles overshadows the possible true nature of the potential clusters and their migrations/expansions.   My own little cluster was named "Welsh" even though I'm Irish and even though we have a Swedish guy and possibly a German.   This cluster is not Welsh, I don't think.  I think it pre-dates what we think of as Welsh.   I wish we had three to four times the testing rate in France, Germany, Italy, Iberia and Scandinavia. We could get a better picture, but it is hard to compare R-L21* haplotypes at less than 67 markers.  Some of the slower moving and key difference makers seem to be in the panels 38-67.

[argiedude]

Maliclavelli, I was looking at Adrian Squecco's database because of your comment regarding L150, and I'm wondering what it means when a result has 2 values, such as CT, instead of either CC or TT. Can anyone explain?

[Maliclavelli]

Argiedude, CT was the first result (V2) from 23andME and we were all the same. Another reading of the data (V3), that not everybody has posted to the Adriano's spreadsheet, gave these results, that are the right ones. Also Thomas Krahn, in his site, put L150+ as a SNP between L23+ and L51+.

[rms2]

I think I may have mentioned an R-L21 who showed up in the Sicily Project a few months ago. I tried to get him to join back then but got no response. Well, he finally joined today. The surname is Vallone from Valledolmo, Sicily.

[argiedude]

I think I may have mentioned an R-L21 who showed up in the Sicily Project a few months ago. I tried to get him to join back then but got no response. Well, he finally joined today. The surname is Vallone from Valledolmo, Sicily.

N58990?

[rms2]

I think I may have mentioned an R-L21 who showed up in the Sicily Project a few months ago. I tried to get him to join back then but got no response. Well, he finally joined today. The surname is Vallone from Valledolmo, Sicily.

N58990?

Yes, and he has a relative with the same surname who is currently awaiting L21 results, kit 118673.

[rms2]

Well, lightning strikes twice, I guess.

There is a new Italian R-L21 this morning: Leimone, Ysearch 8KTXX, whose ancestor came from Turin (modern Torino) in Piemonte in NW Italy.

[Maliclavelli]

Well, lightning strikes twice, I guess.

There is a new Italian R-L21 this morning: Leimone, Ysearch 8KTXX, whose ancestor came from Turin (modern Torino) in Piemonte in NW Italy.

Unfortunately no strike. Leimone isn't an Italian surname and I think it presupposes the French Lemoine.

About the Sicilian I'll indagate. For me remains the unique Argiedude, but I said at which conditions: to test some relative in Italy and exclude a NPE. Of course I would be very glad he was an ancient Italian, ancestor of all R-L21 in Europe, even because Argiedude is a friend.

[rms2]

You may be right about Leimone and Lemoine, but it is also possible that the surname was orignally Limone.

I don't think there is any need to try to explain away every Italian R-L21.

[Maliclavelli]

You may be right about Leimone and Lemoine, but it is also possible that the surname was orignally Limone.

I don't think there is any need to try to explain away every Italian R-L21.

Rich, I don't try to explain away. Science is science and needs proofs and verifications. Too many times I have heard on these forums rash hypotheses and many I think having falsified them too.
I have explained to Francesco Cesaroni, who wrote privately to me, why I prefer the origin of Leimone from Lemoine than from Limone.

A proof for me is already what he says: see Ysearch 8KTXX, Variant spelling: Lemoine Lemojne  Lejmone Lajmone. Never: Limone.

I thank you for having invited me to this forum and I am and remain a friend of yours, but hope you have learned that who is against me the most part of times is a loser.

[rms2]

. . .

I thank you for having invited me to this forum and I am and remain a friend of yours, but hope you have learned that who is against me the most part of times is a loser.

I am your friend, Gioiello, but I haven't quite mastered that last part: what you hope I have learned. What I have learned is that one who is against you faces an opponent with a hard head! ;-)

I know a little bit about this specific situation and can say that the Ysearch entry concerning the surname Lemoine is speculation. The ancestral surname is as likely, if not more likely, to be Limone as it is to be Lemoine.

[vineviz]

I know a little bit about this specific situation and can say that the Ysearch entry concerning the surname Lemoine is speculation. The ancestral surname is as likely, if not more likely, to be Limone as it is to be Lemoine.

When it comes to corrupted Italian surnames, it is often very hard to figure out the origin unless you know the language and dialect of the original immigrant.  There are a handful of languages and dozens of dialects spoken in modern Piemonte.

[Maliclavelli]

I treated this argument on the forum and privately with Francesco Cesaroni. I wanted to write to Cesaroni, but I can write here for you all.

I don’t want to quarrel with those I consider friends (and hope that also Vincent is, or comes back to be). When there are different opinions in matter of science, what shall we do? Experiments. Let’s wait to test other “Limone” from Piedmont, let’s wait to reconstruct the “Limone” lines, as someone of us is doing with his, for instance Belgeri, etc.

To Vincent I can say that just my knowledge of Italy (History, surnames, dialects, Geography etc.) lets me do my analyses. Unfortunately who isn’t Italian, or, though being of Italian extraction, doesn’t know of Italy what I know, cannot have an exact knowledge of the problem and what someone says about Italy is often ridiculous, and sometime also with superficiality and contempt.

[vineviz]

When there are different opinions in matter of science, what shall we do?

As I said, it is a pointless discussion that cannot be resolved.

[Maliclavelli]

That the discussion is pointless is an opinion of yours and nobody force you to participate.
On the Italian Phone Directory (of 2000 but a little bit different from today) there are 14 “Lemoine”, then the surname is real and has nothing to do with “Limone”. It is diffused now overall in Italy, but the centre is Piedmont and two of them live in Ingria, a little hamlet near Valle d’Aosta: this hamlet has also a name in Franco-Provencal. Then probably the surname is from that area: could be of French origin but also there from  always.

This could suggest to us that R-L21 can be found on the border line of Italy, where the link with France has been deeper. And this isn’t anything or pointless. I have also the possibility to phone them and ask something about their family and their origin.

[vineviz]

The surname is Leimone, not Lemoine.  You can find Lemoine in the Italian phone book, but you can also find Limone  and Lamone and others.  The phone book cannot settle this matter.

[Maliclavelli]

Yes, but "Lemoine Lemojne Lejmone Lajmone" is the variants the same "Leimone" put on Ysearch, and you can write or phone to him and ask.

John E. Leimone lives in USA probably. You can write across Ysearch, but, if you want, I can search for his address etc. as I have done in the past.

[Maliclavelli]

If Mr. Vizachero did know many languages (I more than twelve: you can find many mistakes in my English, but more than twelve!) would know that “Leimone” doesn’t mean anything, but “le moine”, pronounced “le mwan”, is in French “The monk”, and in every language there is the surname “The monk”: in Italian Monaco, Lomonaco (South Italy), etc.

Then, as I am not sure that in Franco-Provencal is the same, probably the surname is just French and not of the border line of Italy.









   

[rms2]

Well, it could be Lemoine. That is a Norman surname, and L21 appears to be very common in Normandy.

Anyway, it's nice that you have attributed Leimone's origin to France rather than to a wandering Scotsman or Irishman.

By the way, the surname Vallone has an apparent cognate in the French surname Vallon.