English R-L21*

[Mikewww]

I'm not sure R-L21* can always be assumed to be ancient British in England. I thought that at first, but given the amount of R-L21* turning up in Germany, it seems to me quite possible (and maybe even likely) that some of the R-L21* in England, particularly in the eastern counties where Anglo-Saxon settlement was heaviest, could be Anglo-Saxon.

In the regions traditionally thought of as Celtic, or where it is known the Britons had their strongholds, then it seems more likely that R-L21* is British.

But I think we're going to need some much younger SNPs before we can really separate one European tribe or ethnic group from another.

We don't have any new downstream R-L21 SNP's but perhaps we have a cluster that indicates one.  I'm clipping this from another forum.  It's a letter written to the 17-14-10 cluster.

Hello List members,

We have added several new surnames to our group so bear with me as I outline our group for those not quite up to speed yet. The group was originally identified by Russell Smith in Australia and called the Wales surname cluster for good reason. All of the early members had Welsh patronymic surnames and ancestral origins that led back to Wales.

As more surnames were added, locations outside of Wales were identified. Other areas now include the Bristol Channel, Somerset, Wessex, Hertfordshire and Norfolk. The known family locations right now form a line stretching from North and South Wales, bypassing Cornwall, but sweeping inland from the coast across southern England, and turning up towards Norfolk.

The line is shown in red at this link: http://tinyurl.com/c5ekha The name for our group was changed to the Wales and Anglo-Saxon surnames group to reflect the new records.

What is going on with those surnames?

The surnames in our group do not behave like the other UK and Irish surnames such as the North West Irish (the Ui Neill group) or the Leinster Irish clade. These clades generally have appropriately recognizable surnames that can be attributed to their respective clades. Our surnames (so far) are a little different in that they seem to reflect the home locations. The names in Wales have Welsh patronymic origins, In Somerset, they reflect a Belgium/French influence, in Hertfordshire a continental Low Country or Benelux origin and in Norfolk, they seem to be Danish reflecting the early Danish expansion into the Norfolk (North Folk) area. Two more names in South Africa may have a Dutch origin.

Why do I now call us the R-17-14-10 subclade?

Those three numbers stand for the three allele marker results that, when all three are present, identify the clade. They are DYS448=17, DYS456=14 and DYS450=10. No other Haplogroup R1b group has that combination, making this clade somewhat unique.

Two views of the group results.

I have set up a link to ysearch.org that has most (not all) of the individual names that have a ysearch ID number. However, ysearch will not allow me to color code the mismatches from the group modal (ID = S9R4J) nor can I sort the records. All in all, however, it's still a good site and you can sort of get the feeling of how close your markers are to others in the group. The link is http://tinyurl.com/dnxzy8 

The second site is in Google Docs. It's a beta site so the information will change as I correct or add/delete information but you can get a feel of how close your marker results are to people you did not even know existed. The thing to remember is that all of you share an ancient common ancestor but, outside of your own surname, you are probably not recently related. There are a couple of exceptions. The Google site is slow to come on line but once it does, it works well. It is a work in progress site so let me know when you spot any errors or have any problems. The link is: http://tinyurl.com/r8yzs2

Britannic Celts?

It ïs hard to tell right now whether the clade is of more recent Welsh origin with gene flow out in England or early British Isle Celts with a DNA signature all across southern England and Wales or gene flow from the continent into the UK. No one is willing to stick his/her neck out and go on record right now. Many seem to lean towards the DNA signature being that of early Celts who were either absorbed by the Anglo-Saxon expansion after the Romans left the isles or were pushed down south and west into Wales. Cristian Capelli's 2003 Y chromosome census seems to show both.

Regards, Robert

I'll take up Robert Hughes' implied challenge "No one is willing to stick his/her neck out".   I do think that some subclades of R-L21 found on the Island of Great Britain, be it in Wales or England, are going to be shown as ancient Britons.  I think the 17-14-10 cluster is indicative of one such subclade.

What do you think of the Dutch connections? and Belgium/French connections?  Any possibility of that these have something to do with the ancient Belgae?  Are the ancient Belgae on Great Britain a subset of what was thought of as Brythonic?

[rms2]

Do those values appear together in any L21- men?

[Mikewww]

Do those values appear together in any L21- men?

I assumed so.  The guy who runs the message list for this is a regional ISOGG coordinator so I just assumed he'd toss out or re-categorize anyone not with the same SNP.    I'll go ask.

[Mikewww]

Do those values appear together in any L21- men?

I looked at the 17-14-10 project spreadsheet out at http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=rkz0OgbJRpfGWHoN-iyfLeA&hl=en

I see all of those who have 67 markers tested have 492=12 so at least it is likely that there are not many U106 folks who have this 17-14-10 pattern.

[Mikewww]

I looked at the 17-14-10 project spreadsheet out at http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=rkz0OgbJRpfGWHoN-iyfLeA&hl=en
...

I copied the surnames out of the spreadsheet.  Here they are:

Ab-Hugh
Bennett
Benyon
Callaway
Catton
Davis
Dicks
Dixon
Emlyn-Jones
Evans
Gilbert
Gough
Haney
Hayden
Heymans
Hughes
Jenkins
Jones
Lewis
Logan
Morgan
Murphy
Nichols
Oakley
Owens
Pettit
Phillips
Price
Pritchard
Pugh
Reese
Rice
Roberts
Silvey
Sloop
Spicer
Thomas
West
White
Williams
Wymans

[Mikewww]

Do those values appear together in any L21- men?

Wow, Susan is fast at responding and she is doing a great job of categorizing people.   She just posted on the Wales DNA group.

...  I just put all the 17-14-10 people together. Almost all have deep clade tested L21*.  No one is L21-, unless the one untested person is (doubtful). ...

This does not include complete list from Robert Hughes, just the subset that is in the Wales DNA project.

Based on Susan's findings and RMS2's point, I'd recommend only R-L21* folks who have the 17-14-10 haplotype pattern consider themselves potentially in a new subclade.  I guess this would be where a WTY project would pick up and search for an "identifying" SNP.

[rms2]

They all are R-L21*, but has anyone run that combo in YSearch to see if it pops up in, say, some U152+ guys?

I mention that only because another recent combination (I would have to look in my email to find what it was) that looked pretty good for L21 also popped up in some U152+ guys.

Someone could enter an 8-marker WAMH and that combo, run it, and see what happens.

[rms2]

They all are R-L21*, but has anyone run that combo in YSearch to see if it pops up in, say, some U152+ guys?

I mention that only because another recent combination (I would have to look in my email to find what it was) that looked pretty good for L21 also popped up in some U152+ guys.

Someone could enter an 8-marker WAMH and that combo, run it, and see what happens.

I just did that, and it looks pretty solid. Some un-SNP-tested people pop up, but I didn't see any obvious L21-.

It's too bad we can't run just those three markers, though, and see who else has them, but coupled with a short WAMH they don't generate anything obviously L21-.

[Mikewww]

They all are R-L21*, but has anyone run that combo in YSearch to see if it pops up in, say, some U152+ guys?

I mention that only because another recent combination (I would have to look in my email to find what it was) that looked pretty good for L21 also popped up in some U152+ guys.

Someone could enter an 8-marker WAMH and that combo, run it, and see what happens.

I just did that, and it looks pretty solid. Some un-SNP-tested people pop up, but I didn't see any obvious L21-.

It's too bad we can't run just those three markers, though, and see who else has them, but coupled with a short WAMH they don't generate anything obviously L21-.

What are you saying?  We just have a lot of R1b1b2 people who need to upgrade to 67 markers? or that Ysearch has defficiencies?    I agree with both.

[rms2]

They all are R-L21*, but has anyone run that combo in YSearch to see if it pops up in, say, some U152+ guys?

I mention that only because another recent combination (I would have to look in my email to find what it was) that looked pretty good for L21 also popped up in some U152+ guys.

Someone could enter an 8-marker WAMH and that combo, run it, and see what happens.

I just did that, and it looks pretty solid. Some un-SNP-tested people pop up, but I didn't see any obvious L21-.

It's too bad we can't run just those three markers, though, and see who else has them, but coupled with a short WAMH they don't generate anything obviously L21-.

What are you saying?  We just have a lot of R1b1b2 people who need to upgrade to 67 markers? or that Ysearch has defficiencies?    I agree with both.

What I was saying is that the thing looks pretty good. I was just wondering if there are any potential holes in it. If not, then it would be a real breakthrough: a solid way of predicting by haplotype that at least some people are almost certain to be R-L21*.