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Terry Barton
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« on: March 18, 2009, 06:30:21 PM »

Are there any R-L2s out there who are interested in working together to see what we can find for our Deep Clade?

Terry Barton
R1b1b2a1b4c* (negative for L20)
« Last Edit: April 23, 2009, 11:25:14 AM by Terry Barton » Logged
vtilroe
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« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2009, 02:39:19 AM »

Are there any R-L2s out there who are interested in working together to see what we can find for our Deep Clade?

Terry Barton
R1b1b2a1b4c* (negative for L20)
I'd be willing chip in for the P312* group, but I seem to be thousands of years separated from everyone (having broken away fairly early), so it probably wouldn't help much.

It might be useful to go in as an outlier with the L21 group that is getting organized.  The problem is that since P312 is so young, the odds of finding anything useful for either L2 or L21 are pretty remote.

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« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2009, 04:36:01 AM »

I'd be willing to chip in also if that doesn't make Terry uncomfortable. I’m all for advancing our knowledge in this industry and getting beyond the limitations we have now.
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« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2009, 12:08:44 PM »

Would it be beneficial for Terry to recruit the most eastern tested result to date in the R-P312 and Subclades Project?

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/atlantic-r1b1c/default.aspx?section=yresults


R-P312 and Subclades Project


187 121942 Mamedaliyev, Kazakhstan (Kipchak)  R1b1b2a1b4c 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 13 12 14 13 30 18 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 16 17 18       10 12 20 23 16 15 19 16 36 38 11 12                                                               


189 19736 Thomas Barton of Stafford Co VA, 1675 (English)  R1b1b2a1b4c 13 24 14 11 10 14 12 13 12 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 16 17       11 11 19 23 17 15 19 17 35 36 12 12 11 9 15 17 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23 23 17 10 12 12 15 8 13 23 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 11
 
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Jafety R1b-U152
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« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2009, 06:00:53 PM »

I would be interested if my L2 Custom SNP test result would be positive.

On Kazakhstan, I would draw your attention on the fact that a significant portion (around 5-10%) of Kazakhstan's population was German before 1990. Many of them "returned" to Germany after the collapse of the Soviet Union. They were mainly Volga Germans forcibly removed to Kazakhstan by Stalin.
Intermarriage with Russians could have easily occured, therefore we should treat Kazakh R1b1b2 results carefully even if they have Slavic surnames, as they can be the result of a quite recent gene flow.
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Earliest known paternal ancestor: Matthias Fejer, b. 1819, Jaszarokszallas, Jasz county, Central Hungary
MtDNA: U4 (Western Siberian Ugric)
vtilroe
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« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2009, 07:10:09 PM »

I would be interested if my L2 Custom SNP test result would be positive.

On Kazakhstan, I would draw your attention on the fact that a significant portion (around 5-10%) of Kazakhstan's population was German before 1990. Many of them "returned" to Germany after the collapse of the Soviet Union. They were mainly Volga Germans forcibly removed to Kazakhstan by Stalin.
Intermarriage with Russians could have easily occured, therefore we should treat Kazakh R1b1b2 results carefully even if they have Slavic surnames, as they can be the result of a quite recent gene flow.
Our Kazakhstan L2+ is much more interesting because he is actually a Kipchak tribesman, and not a descendant of a German colonist.  It may also be inappropriate to label him the "spawn of a 12th century crusader who took a wrong turn at Constantinople", as another forum member had put it.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2009, 07:15:17 PM by vtilroe » Logged

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Terry Barton
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« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2009, 01:13:13 PM »

So, do we have enough interest for a number of us to each chip in the modest amount (say $75) like I saw in one discussion group?

I like the idea of testing the L2+ fellow from Kazakhstan as one of the men we test.  Is he also tested for L20?

Are we each going to have to dig deeper to make this happen - like $150 apiece from 5 of us per test?  Has anyone been following this closely enough to understand how many folks we do need to test to have reasonable probabilities of success?

One possibility might be to have a person who pays a bigger chunk be the one "selected" to represent a group - say someone paying $375 becomes the test  representative, while the 5 paying $75 are team members and get first look at the data. 

And - personally, I am biased to a group focused on subdividing L2, but I can see the R-P312 group who aren't L2+ wanting to also do the "Walk".  If I understand things correctly, mixing L2+ and L2- (or R-P312 untested at L2) is a mixed effort - and that we should keep those separated.  Ditto L20+ and L20-, where we would want separate efforts

So - I think R-P312 should be trying to pull together 3 separate "Walk" teams:

1. L20+ [seeking to subdivide L20]

2. L2+ (L20-) [seeking to subdivide L2]

3. P312 (L2-) [seeking sister subclades to L2]

Note that a person not tested for L20 in group 2 might really belong in Group 1 and that a person not tested for L2 in group 3 might really belong to Group 2, so we would want the representatives we are sponsoring to be truly in our group.

Other thoughts?  Are we ready to talk to Kerchner, Faux and Stevens to see how they would like to lead or help?

Terry
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Giuseppe
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« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2009, 01:50:50 PM »

I am interested to pay 75 US for the Kipchak man ... "Walk through the Y"..
Write me when and how will be possible to help you in this research..
Ciao
Giuseppe
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vtilroe
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« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2009, 03:07:41 PM »

I'll pitch in $150 for the P312+ L2- team.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 03:10:04 PM by vtilroe » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2009, 01:51:27 AM »

Terry,

Any news on WTY progress for L2 and L20?

We have a potential candidate for P312* who is solidly in the R1b-NS cluster, since it seems to be the most identifiable cluster in P312* available.  I also have a hunch that if there is an SNP to identify the NS cluster, M153 could possibly turn out being derived for it, which would be very cool.

Our NS cluster candidate says he's good for half the price, which brings promissory funding up to 80%.  $150 more and we should be good to go.

I e-mailed Thomas Krahn about it and he gave the green light, so it's just a matter of getting the project set up.  I also informed him about the desire to test someone in L2 and L20, and specifically about the desire to test our Kazakhstani L2.  He said we can use the one project to handle all the P312+ test subjects.  He also said he'll double-check our L2+ Kipchak guy.

Vince Tilroe
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« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2009, 03:13:54 AM »

The R-P312-WTY (Walk Through the Y) Project is now up and running!

We are able to have multiple P312 subjects tested in the same project, so that's good if there are other P312+ guys in other clusters or sub-clades willing to be tested.  The only thing is that it will be exempting L21+ men as Patrick Tagert has a separate project set up to address their particular requirements.

Anyone who is P312+ L21- is eligible to participate as a sponsor or as a test subject.

Two men have already joined up and are self-funded - one is L20+ and the other plain-vanilla P312*.

A third belonging to the R1b-NS cluster is being queued up, with others to follow as funding permits.

To sponsor someone for R-P312-WTY, please go to http://www.familytreedna.com/group-general-fund-contribution.aspx, select "R", and scroll down to near the bottom where R-P312-WTY appears. Select that, and then fill in the rest of the donor info. Under Notes, enter the cluster, haplogroup, surname, or kit# of the subject you wish to sponsor. If you wish to self-fund instead, enter your own kit#. A follow up e-mail to me will be useful to make sure funds are designated appropriately.

Non-designated funds will be prioritized towards test subjects in queue.

Thank you,

Vince Tilroe
R-P312-WTY Project
http://tinyurl.com/daertg
« Last Edit: April 19, 2009, 03:17:31 AM by vtilroe » Logged

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Terry Barton
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« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2009, 10:37:16 AM »

Vince, this is great!  Delighted that you have kicked this off.   (sorry, I have been really busy lately - kept intending to reply - but clearly your lead will be a great thing)

As I look at the subjects, I am unclear on whether whether they are SNP tested to the FTDNA limit - which affects my own thinking about participation - as I don't want to be redundant if another sample would be more illustrative.

I am P312+, U152+, L2+, L20-.  That puts me into a different subset from Guiseppe Belgieri, who is L20+, but I can't tell where Steve Knuckels and Bud Rogers fall.  Are neither tested past P312+, or are both negative for everything after P312?   

If my L2+, L20- would be helpful,  I am willing to follow Steve's lead and fund half of my test.

Terry
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vtilroe
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« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2009, 03:25:56 PM »

Both Knuckles and Rogers are fully tested P312* (negative for everything downstream).

Knuckles is our first R1b-NS representative, and is also in Adrian Squecco's 23andMe spreadsheet at http://www.webalice.it/asquecco/Y_DNA-Forums.zip.

Rogers was placed on the opposite side of my P312* SplitsTree diagram from Knuckles. http://vince.tilroe.ca/P312/P312asterisk.png  (ref. kit# N2642 and 72190)

Belgieri is actually M228.2+.

No one who is U152* or L2* has stepped up to the plate yet, so please feel free to do so!
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« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2009, 05:24:38 PM »

I am in for $375.  I am L2+, L20-. 

Terry
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Terry Barton
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« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2009, 11:24:29 AM »

I just changed the name of this thread to "R-P312-WTY"

Terry
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vtilroe
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« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2009, 12:12:43 AM »

We received a few more donations over the past few days, and frankly I am Shocked. Amazed. Stupefied.

There's enough of a surplus in the kitty to fund one test completely and almost enough to cover a second, beyond the five men we already have.

I had no idea there was such a support team backing the P312 (xL21) group. Three cheers to the Anonymous Contributors! Whoo-hoo-hoo!!!

So the question now is, who do you think would be the best candidates of a free (or almost free) WTY test?

- someone in R-P312/S116*? [3 so far]
- someone in R-M153+?
- someone in R-M167/SRY2627+?
- someone in R-S28/U152*?
- someone in R-L2/S139*? [1 so far]
- someone in R-L20/S144+? [1 so far]
- someone in R-S68+?
- someone in Nordtvedt's P312* R1b-NS cluster? [1 so far]
- someone in Nordtvedt's P312* R1b-Ub cluster?
- the Kazakhstani Kipchak L2+ guy?

I've set up a poll for this at dna-forums.org, so you can vote there, or write-in your feedback below.

Thank you,

Vince Tilroe
R-P312-WTY Project
http://tinyurl.com/daertg
« Last Edit: April 25, 2009, 12:13:52 AM by vtilroe » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2009, 02:38:07 PM »

So far, the dna-forums poll results are as follows:

Someone in R-P312/S116* [3 so far][ 14 ][20.90%]
Someone in R-M153+ [ 2 ][2.99%]
Someone in R-M167/SRY2627+[ 1 ][1.49%]
Someone in R-S28/U152*[ 1 ][1.49%]
Someone in R-L2/S139* [1 so far][ 0 ][0.00%]
Someone in R-L20/S144+ [1 so far][ 1 ][1.49%]
Someone in R-S68+[ 6 ] [8.96%]
Our Kazakhstani Kipchak L2+ guy[ 12 ][17.91%]
Someone in Nordtvedt's R1b-Ub (goldenhind!)[ 9 ][13.43%]
Ben Moscia (Italian P312*)[ 12 ][17.91%]
Focus only on R1b-NS[ 9 ][13.43%]

goldenhind had requested that Mr. Plies (ysearch QBRJW) represent the P312* R1b-Ub cluster instead, since Plies is tested to 67 markers and has also done 23andMe.  At about the same time, Plies requested to participate, and has willing to contribute more than half of the test price.  Soo... Plies is now queued up.

I have also invited Mr. Mamedaliyev, the Kazakhstani L2+, to join up and participate under the free ticket offer.  Hopefully he'll accept.

There are a couple of other P312* men who have also requested to participate as test subjects, but there's not enough surplus in the general fund to cover them all yet.  In the mean time, we'll keep up the fund raising as much as we can.  If there is money available, we'll find men to test.  And if we can't, I'll offer myself up, if need be.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2009, 02:39:26 PM by vtilroe » Logged

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Terry Barton
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« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2009, 05:56:11 PM »

Vince, do I need to do something to be included in your P312* tree - or is that only for folks who didn't test positive for a downstream SNP?

If I am reading correctly, we now have 4 men from R-P312* - as Mr Plies  is our 4th?   Great!   Would it be possible to identify the 4 of them on your P312asterisk page?

I'll be tickled to see Mr. Mamedaliyev join us, particularly as he is like me - an L2*

Thanks for all that you are doing!  Terry
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« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2009, 07:00:29 PM »

So far we have:

R-P312* R1b-NS
  • Knuckles

R-P312* R1b-Ub
  • Plies

R-P312* Plain-Vanilla (WAMH)
  • Rogers
  • Jewett

R-L2*
  • Barton

R-L20+
  • Belgieri
« Last Edit: May 03, 2009, 07:03:12 PM by vtilroe » Logged

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« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2009, 07:18:24 PM »

So far we have:

R-P312* R1b-NS
  • Knuckles

R-P312* R1b-Ub
  • Plies

R-P312* Plain-Vanilla (WAMH)
  • Rogers
  • Jewett

R-L2*
  • Barton

R-L20+
  • Belgieri
Have these all been approved by FTDNA for testing?
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vtilroe
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« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2009, 08:11:15 PM »

All have submitted the application form.  It doesn't seem to be an "approval" requirement as such - Thomas is leaving that up to the group coordinators.

Quote
Dear Vince,

In general I consider you haplogroup admins as the true expert. I myself have only a broad knowledge of all haplogroups in general and I can't keep up with all developments in all branches.

So I can only recommend a general strategy:
Of course with STR haplotype outliers you'll have a higher chance to get a deep rooting MRCA and therefore a higher chance of finding a new SNP in between. However this is not the only way to maximize this. For example you could also consider geographical distance. Eg you could pick candidates that have been separated by a natural- or a human made barrier or by different language. In R-P312 we have a lot of convergence in the STR profiles so that you could almost pick anyone with almost the same chances.

There is no quota limit but I'd recommend to wait and see how the first results come out after the first group was done.
Best is probably to select a distinct participant and then direct the funding targeted on him. You can always dedicate a new WTY candidate if a new question arises which you want to solve. This way you won't get too much in a need to quickly decide for a sub-optimal candidate only because there is money in the fund which needs to be spent somehow.

I hope this helps,

Thomas

So the primary strategy is to find people [who are willing to participate] that are at GD extremes from each other, and who also represent a good geographical spread across both the Continent and the Isles.  Once an SNP is found, we can then offer up a person with a more recent GD to see if the SNP is shared.

The problem within plain-vanilla P312* is that everyone seems to be pretty much equidistant to everyone else, so it's a bit of a crap shoot right now.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2009, 08:23:24 PM by vtilroe » Logged

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« Reply #21 on: May 04, 2009, 04:42:33 PM »

Quote
the odds of finding anything useful for either L2 or L21 are pretty remote.
Is this true; what are the odds?  Given the apparent rapid proliferation of P-312 it would seem there would be some more out there.  Seems sample size would be the problem.
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« Reply #22 on: May 04, 2009, 08:35:03 PM »

From my understanding, the chance of finding a new SNP (either private or phylogenetically useful) may well be less than 50% per subject in R1b, maybe closer to 30% for P312.  This is simply due to the age of R-P312 compared to results from the the E-clade beta run.

However, it seems that these probabilities are cumulative, so if we test 2 or 3 men, we should have a pretty good chance of finding at least one SNP.

However, if one is found, the odds favor a private one over a useful one.

It's a risky venture.  The odds of finding a useful SNP only improve if (a) a larger swath of the Y is sequenced, (b) more people are sampled, or (c) areas of the Y that are presumed to be more susceptible to mutations are targeted.

Strategy (a) is constrained by FTDNA supplies & equipment, strategy (c) is problematic as there are only a few reference sequences available right now that could provide any indication of where those susceptible zones may be, which leaves (b) to work with.
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« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2009, 10:09:49 PM »

Actually just finding one SNP within L21 could be really important depending on how equally it divides the subclade.  Defining a "known" cluster would not be as exciting as splitting L21 down the middle.  The opportunities for extending the discussion boggle the mind.  A negative result for a "cluster" could also be important.

Lots to look forward to if we find something.
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« Reply #24 on: May 05, 2009, 08:16:13 PM »

I was re-reading some of the past WTY discussion on the Rootsweb Genealogy-DNA list last night, and noticed that my assumption, that the sequencing would be completely contiguous, is in error.  Rather, Thomas' plan is to use existing primers that are used for other SNP tests that are otherwise never done for someone in R-M269.  Not having to design and stock new primer sets would definitely keep costs down.  I don't know if he's reconsidered, though.

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2009-03/1237322957
Quote
As it can be seen on my slides we're not planning to sequence a
continuous region, but arbitrary segments where we have already well
tested primer pairs working. Those are segments that contain already one
or more published SNPs and we know from our routine testing that they
give reliable results. However we usually exclusively ran those segments
for one specific haplogroup only who was interested in this distinct
SNP. E.g. we never ran a R-U106 person for the segment that contains the
L22 marker and vice versa. On all those segments (especially on the very
new ones) we could potentially expect new SNPs for all the other
haplogroups.  ...
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