World Families Forums - R-L21 Clusters - can we identify a few?

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
July 25, 2014, 10:11:16 AM
Home Help Search Login Register

+  World Families Forums
|-+  General Forums - Note: You must Be Logged In to post. Anyone can browse.
| |-+  R1b General (Moderator: rms2)
| | |-+  R-L21 Clusters - can we identify a few?
« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 Go Down Print
Author Topic: R-L21 Clusters - can we identify a few?  (Read 10410 times)
susanrosine
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 76


« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2009, 03:29:44 AM »

Smarter people than me have looked at Vince's diagrams and are noticing there may be a strong off-modal pattern for some L21* folks at 617 and 406S1 locii that has not been found at all in M222+, so I guess that means we'd be the opposite of "pre M222+".
Mike--where is this discussed? Is it on another forum or mailing list? Somehow I missed this discussion, and I'd like to know what the off-modal pattern is.
Thanks, Susan
Logged

Dad: JAMES:  Ysearch QSCQ3;  R-P312, L21+ (R1b1b2a1b5*)
Dad: mitosearch QSCQ3; T1a; no matches HVR2 or FGS
Mom's brother: LEWTER: Ysearch FYFDA;  R-U106, L48+ (R1b1b2a1a*)
Mom's brother: mitosearch FYFDA, U5b2; 1 exac
susanrosine
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 76


« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2009, 03:32:12 AM »

Smarter people than me have looked at Vince's diagrams and are noticing there may be a strong off-modal pattern for some L21* folks at 617 and 406S1 locii that has not been found at all in M222+, so I guess that means we'd be the opposite of "pre M222+".
Mike--where is this discussed? Is it on another forum or mailing list? Somehow I missed this discussion, and I'd like to know what the off-modal pattern is.
Thanks, Susan
Well, how funny is that? I just ran across it, right after I posted the question asking where it was!!
Logged

Dad: JAMES:  Ysearch QSCQ3;  R-P312, L21+ (R1b1b2a1b5*)
Dad: mitosearch QSCQ3; T1a; no matches HVR2 or FGS
Mom's brother: LEWTER: Ysearch FYFDA;  R-U106, L48+ (R1b1b2a1a*)
Mom's brother: mitosearch FYFDA, U5b2; 1 exac
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2009, 07:34:07 AM »

There should be a good method, whether splits tree, fluxus, etc. to see which L21* men are truly the closest to M222+ men.  Obviously there once was a L21+ man, and he had a son who was the first M222+. But wouldn't their haploTYPES have been identical, or maybe 1 off?  If you have an approx date for the appearance of M222+, calculate the possible mutations since then-- Voila! The "pre M222+" group--descendants of the L21*'s other sons.  Sounds easy, doesn't it? LOL :-)
Smarter people than me have looked at Vince's diagrams and are noticing there may be a strong off-modal pattern for some L21* folks at 617 and 406S1 locii that has not been found at all in M222+, so I guess that means we'd be the opposite of "pre M222+".

Yes, I got an email about that, too. It looks good, but I understand there is at least one R-U152 and one R-M167 who have those values, so one has to be careful.
Logged

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2009, 07:39:53 AM »

Smarter people than me have looked at Vince's diagrams and are noticing there may be a strong off-modal pattern for some L21* folks at 617 and 406S1 locii that has not been found at all in M222+, so I guess that means we'd be the opposite of "pre M222+".
Mike--where is this discussed? Is it on another forum or mailing list? Somehow I missed this discussion, and I'd like to know what the off-modal pattern is.
Thanks, Susan

I heard about it from Ann Stansbarger, who I believe is the one who first noticed it. She found 617=13 and 406s1=11 in a number of R-L21 Plus Project members and then ran a short WAMH haplotype coupled with those values and turned up a few more, including Mueller of Bavaria, who is R-L21* and a member of the project (but Ann did not know that at the time) and another German, Keasler, who is, as far as I know, not SNP tested.

But again, she also turned up an R-U152 who has those values and an R-M167 who has them, so one has to be careful. They could be good indicators, but obviously they are not infallible.
Logged

Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2963


WWW
« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2009, 09:01:44 AM »

Smarter people than me have looked at Vince's diagrams and are noticing there may be a strong off-modal pattern for some L21* folks at 617 and 406S1 locii that has not been found at all in M222+, so I guess that means we'd be the opposite of "pre M222+".
Mike--where is this discussed? Is it on another forum or mailing list? Somehow I missed this discussion, and I'd like to know what the off-modal pattern is.
Thanks, Susan

I heard about it from Ann Stansbarger, who I believe is the one who first noticed it. She found 617=13 and 406s1=11 in a number of R-L21 Plus Project members and then ran a short WAMH haplotype coupled with those values and turned up a few more, including Mueller of Bavaria, who is R-L21* and a member of the project (but Ann did not know that at the time) and another German, Keasler, who is, as far as I know, not SNP tested.

But again, she also turned up an R-U152 who has those values and an R-M167 who has them, so one has to be careful. They could be good indicators, but obviously they are not infallible.
I agree these are not infallible.  That's why it is important to get the deepest clade testing you can to make sure you are in the right sub-clade in the first place.  That should increase the odds of making these kinds of clusters meaningful.  Of course, you also need 67 markers tested. Two of the three key markers in this case required the 67 marker upgrade.   
I applaud Vince T for creating the diagram!  It does help highlight possible relationships.  I do think there is something to this cluster, at least some subset of it.
Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2009, 06:47:55 PM »


I agree these are not infallible.  That's why it is important to get the deepest clade testing you can to make sure you are in the right sub-clade in the first place.  That should increase the odds of making these kinds of clusters meaningful.  Of course, you also need 67 markers tested. Two of the three key markers in this case required the 67 marker upgrade.   
I applaud Vince T for creating the diagram!  It does help highlight possible relationships.  I do think there is something to this cluster, at least some subset of it.



I think Vince did a good job with it, too, but it's a shame that it is being taken by some to mean some things that just aren't there.

That is how things that are otherwise good can do actual damage: when they are misinterpreted by those who don't understand them or don't bother to actually analyze the relationships.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2009, 06:48:43 PM by rms2 » Logged

Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2963


WWW
« Reply #31 on: April 16, 2009, 05:01:19 PM »

I'm going to add a few posts to this thread related to specific haplotype patterns related to STR marker alleles that are off-modal.

Please don't view this exercise as comprehensive or scientific.  I have no statistical tools or graphical analysis of the data.  Consider it just a hobbyist glance at the data. I just want to share what I saw and see if there are any comments.

The goal of the exercise is to look for possible future sub-clades within R-L21* haplotypes.   STR markers do converge as well as diverge so nothing here is definitive, but I just thought there might be some interesting patterns.

In this case, the modal for R-L21* is exactly the same as the Western Atlantic.

I only looked at known R-L21* haplotypes and tried to eliminate clearly redundant ones.  R-M222 haplotypes do cluster with with similar off-modal variances in many cases.  I excluded R-M222 since it is already a defined sub-clade of R-L21+.

I downloaded the data out of the L21 project and Ysearch looked for only R-L21* haplogroups.  I tried to eliminate redundant FTDNA kit#/Ysearch ID haplotypes.

I tried to look for a pattern of at two or three STR markers were there were more than just a few off-modal haplotypes and there seemed to be some kind of alignment of the off-modal STRs.   I looked at slower moving markers first using mutation rates that have been published recently on these forums.

Sorry if I make a few mistakes or miss someone.
Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2963


WWW
« Reply #32 on: April 16, 2009, 06:55:16 PM »


Here is a pattern I looked for among the R-L21* in the L21* project and in Ysearch.   There is an off-modal combination at markers 448, 456 and 450.  This was discovered by a fellow named Robert Hughes.  He calls it the "17-14-10" cluster.   I actually only a found a few of this among R-L21* tested folks: 

FT85661   b-UK, appears in Nfld. 1791 
FT62242   Sloop of Wales 
FT36039   John Gough, 1805, Gilford, County Down, Ireland

I append "FT" to front of FTDNA kit #s..  I appended "YS" if it was something I found in YSearch.   

There are more people in the Wales DNA project that have this, but it doesn't look like many have tested or L21 yet.


Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2963


WWW
« Reply #33 on: April 16, 2009, 11:12:28 PM »

Here's another pattern that looks fairly interesting.  All of these are below WAMH at 391, above at 531 and at 444 and below at 413a. That's a pretty good combination of off-modal markers.   Also, most are above at YCAIIb.

A lot of Scotland and some Scandinavia.

FTN5620   Erik Ersson Backström, b. 1712, Jämtland, SE 
FT36081   Gulbrand Askilson Rannekleiv, 1540-1619 Norway 
FT84796   John Hosie bc 1755 Renfrewshire,Scotland 
FT48641   Hugh McMillan, born 1819 Scotland,found in NA 1850 
FT10429   Andrew Lamont Young, b 1646 Dunoon, Scotland 
FT110529   Thomas Eunson,8th May,1864, Kirkwall,Scotland 
FT21482   Francis Rocks, Cladymore, County Armagh, 1817 
FT15648   John Enias Hunt - b1839 Marlboro County, SC 
FT14517   James H. Mitchell b. c1810 TN, prob. Bedford Co. 
FT14346   JamesTagert,b.ca.1770NC/d.-Spring Hill,AL1827-L21+ 
FT21482   Francis Rocks, Cladymore, County Armagh, 1817 
YS9ZWK9   Arnold - Milton Abbas, Alton Pancras, England 
YSB6ET4   Mitchell - Bedford, VA, America 
FT10429   Andrew Lamont Young, b 1646 Dunoon, Scotland 
YSDHU8U   Rogers - Montgomery Co., North Carolina, USA 
YSG3ERH   Mitchell - Tennessee, USA 
YSKG2FY   Stanley - Scotland 
FT48641   Hugh McMillan, born 1819 Scotland,found in NA 1850 
YSMABKF   Tagert - Stewart county, Tennessee, USA 
YSNZWQD   Turner - Scotland 
YSPYMQZ   McDonald - Laggan, Scotland 
YSRQMZ7   Campbell - Scotland 
YSS3NK2   Rogers - Unknown 
FT36081   Gulbrand Askilson Rannekleiv, 1540-1619 Norway 
YSX69Z8   Hamilton - Scotland 
YSXFA7Y   Roberts - Scotland 

Did I just stumble on what is already known as the Scottish modal or something?
Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2963


WWW
« Reply #34 on: April 16, 2009, 11:21:43 PM »

The following R-L21* are below the WAMH modal on 439, 447 and 456.
More than half of those listed also are below modal at 391, 565 and above on 442.

FTN59178   Thomas Carroll. b.c. 1811, Ireland; m. NB, Canada 
FT132318   Rev. Robert Huey, b. near Kilrea, IRL d. 1807 PA 
FT128753   Michael Griffy, Shandrum, Clare Ire. married 1841 
FTN56434   Owen Reilly, County Cork, Ireland b abt 1830 
FT80818    -
FT59080   Auguston Stevens, b. 05 Feb 1804, Wheeling, WV 
FT116780   Domingo Maderas 
FT23996   Thomas Pike (Carbonear Nfld and Poole Dorset) 
FT140532   RODDY Rumoured at County Cork need evidence 
FT57563   William Cooper, b.c. 1808, NC 
FT143916   Celedonio Rodriguez Rincon Puerto Rico c. 1860 
YS5KWD7   McRaney - Isle of Jura, Western Isles, Scotland 
FT133418   Nevins - Galway City, Ireland 
YSDWB7A   Mabe - Kinn-Ross, Scotland 
YSDYVXF   Roddy - Ireland 
YSGG6FF   Melville - in or near Bantry, County Cork, Ireland 
YSGKCMZ   Memos - Jamaica Plains, Massachusetts, USA 
YSHX9ZF   Stevens - Wheeling, West Virginia, USA 
YSK56NG   Colwell - Unknown 
YSKT35F   Mulkey - Kentucky, USA 
YSTNU8H   Turner - Bristol, Somerset, England 
YSYMV4A   Madaris - Unknown 
Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2963


WWW
« Reply #35 on: April 16, 2009, 11:29:24 PM »

The following pattern is R-L21*'s that are above modal at both 406S1 and 617.  I didn't discover this either.   This is shown in one of the graphic charts that others have done.  I'm in this one.   The only other thing I can say is that several on this list think they have Norman and Viking connections.

FT113882   Georg Müller b.1704 Oberweissenbach, Germany 
FT83065   Edward Stevens, b 1641, Stepney, London, England 
FT132342   Wm Pilsbury, b 1605, Eng: MDKO Pilsbury, DBY <1543 
FT65521   Samuel Robertson born 1793 Orkney, Scotland 
FT125553   Archibald Harvey Johnston, Scotland to Ire 1700s 
FT39200   John Vaus, d ca 1385 Scotland 
FT10800   James Diver, b.c. 1824, Kilmacrenan, Donegal, Irel 
FT95913   Cornelius Coleman 
FT113748   Robert Mavity 
FT83015   McConnell, before 1825, Ireland 
FTN51503   Michael Leary, b. 1821, Ireland 
FTN54638   Edmund Charles Walsh,b1829,Cty Kilkenny, Ireland
FT41466   Walter Kelly, Timahoe, Kildare, Ireland b.abt.1730 
FT77904   JOHN ROSS, CO FERMANAGH, Ireland, b c1809 
FT93174   Peter Bussey, b.c. 1785, Shenandoah Valley, Va. 
FTN19218   John Dugger, Sr., b. c1720, Surry Co., VA 
FT32119   Richard ROSE b. ca. 6 May 1716, Great Wolford, WAR 
YS2WHRU   Woods - Alabama, USA 
YS6TS23   Kelly - Kershaw County, South Carolina, USA 
FT16793   Archibald Kelly born ca 1740 Kintyre, Scotland
YSCAAGC   McAllister - Northern Ireland 
YSQ69ZC   Ros Mascy Superfamily - Unknown 
YST4HVP   McCowan - Ireland 
YSY7QYG   Werner - Unknown 
Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2963


WWW
« Reply #36 on: April 16, 2009, 11:36:19 PM »

The following R-L21*'s are below 448, above at 557, CDYa and CDYb.  CDY markers are fast moving but 448 and 557 are more medium mutating.

FT88224   Philip Quilliam b.c.1604, Peel, Isle of Man 
FT90442   John Law, b. ~1660, Ayrshire, Scotland 
FT3055   Adam Beattie 
FT3032   James Beatty b bef.1800 Collooney Co.Sligo Ireland 
FTN38274   Peter Gaston, bc1790, Co. Antrim N.Ireland 
FT35786    -
FT96196   Jose Francisco Vicente Cienfuegos,1865,Santa Fe,NM 
FT14738   William Carmack, b.c. 1784, Craven Cty, NC 
FT28460    -
FT92891   Renatus Downing 
YS6YSEA   McDonald - Scotland 
YSA8HY7   McCracken - Unknown 
YSXQMXR   McCracken - Unknown 
YSZ3WVN   Law - Ayshire, Scotland 

Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2963


WWW
« Reply #37 on: April 16, 2009, 11:41:10 PM »

The following R-L21* are below the WAMH modal at 390 and 439 while being above at 442

YSAF8GN   Barreto - Spain 
YSBKY6M   Ferguson - United Kingdom 
YSC5AXN   Cain - Brock's Gap, Virginia, USA 
YSCC7N8   Ferguson - Scotland 
YSDYVXF   Roddy - Ireland 
YSGKCMZ   Memos - Jamaica Plains, Massachusetts, USA 
FT140541   Ralph Wallen 1557 rotherham,west riding,yorkshire 
YSRX7CS   Ferguson - ooltewah, USA 
YSTNU8H   Turner - Bristol, Somerset, England 

Of these, three also are below modal at 439, 447 and 456:
YSDYVXF   Roddy - Ireland 
YSGKCMZ   Memos - Jamaica Plains, Massachusetts, USA 
YSTNU8H   Turner - Bristol, Somerset, England 


Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2963


WWW
« Reply #38 on: April 18, 2009, 10:36:11 AM »

Here is another possible pattern/cluster.  The following R-L21* are above the WAMH modal at 448 and below at 607.

FT115893   Thomas Blanford, b. 1648 Dorset,Eng; d.1698 Md  
FT26883   Richard Tupper b. 1523 Bury, W. Sussex, England 
FT24567   John Walker,b.c.1679,New Deer,Aberdeen,Scotland 
FT11435   John Elliott, b. 1878, Donegal, Ireland 
FT129964   Como, Lombardy, Italy 
YSGG6FF   Melville - in or near Bantry, County Cork, Ireland 
FT129964   Como, Lombardy, Italy 

All of the above except FT26883 are also below the modal at 456.
Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
NealtheRed
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 930


« Reply #39 on: April 18, 2009, 01:20:42 PM »

The following R-L21*'s are below 448, above at 557, CDYa and CDYb.  CDY markers are fast moving but 448 and 557 are more medium mutating.

FT88224   Philip Quilliam b.c.1604, Peel, Isle of Man 
FT90442   John Law, b. ~1660, Ayrshire, Scotland 
FT3055   Adam Beattie 
FT3032   James Beatty b bef.1800 Collooney Co.Sligo Ireland 
FTN38274   Peter Gaston, bc1790, Co. Antrim N.Ireland 
FT35786    -
FT96196   Jose Francisco Vicente Cienfuegos,1865,Santa Fe,NM 
FT14738   William Carmack, b.c. 1784, Craven Cty, NC 
FT28460    -
FT92891   Renatus Downing 
YS6YSEA   McDonald - Scotland 
YSA8HY7   McCracken - Unknown 
YSXQMXR   McCracken - Unknown 
YSZ3WVN   Law - Ayshire, Scotland 



This cluster shares a similarity with the Eastern Ireland/Scottish-English Borders cluster of which I am part.

Many of these names are Southern Scottish or Northern English, like Beatty or Downing.

Leinster Ireland had plenty of foreign genetic input, from Normans, English, and Norwegians. I don't know how this relates to the Scottish-English border area, but take what you can from it.
Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



NealtheRed
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 930


« Reply #40 on: April 18, 2009, 01:26:57 PM »

I also noticed that McCracken is common in the Dumfries and Galloway area of Southern Scotland.

Interesting!
Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



NealtheRed
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 930


« Reply #41 on: April 18, 2009, 01:49:59 PM »

The following R-L21*'s are below 448, above at 557, CDYa and CDYb.  CDY markers are fast moving but 448 and 557 are more medium mutating.

FT88224   Philip Quilliam b.c.1604, Peel, Isle of Man 
FT90442   John Law, b. ~1660, Ayrshire, Scotland 
FT3055   Adam Beattie 
FT3032   James Beatty b bef.1800 Collooney Co.Sligo Ireland 
FTN38274   Peter Gaston, bc1790, Co. Antrim N.Ireland 
FT35786    -
FT96196   Jose Francisco Vicente Cienfuegos,1865,Santa Fe,NM 
FT14738   William Carmack, b.c. 1784, Craven Cty, NC 
FT28460    -
FT92891   Renatus Downing 
YS6YSEA   McDonald - Scotland 
YSA8HY7   McCracken - Unknown 
YSXQMXR   McCracken - Unknown 
YSZ3WVN   Law - Ayshire, Scotland 



I just noticed this too, but Law is also found heavily in Northumbria. I think you're on to something, Mike.
Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



cmblandford
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 85


« Reply #42 on: April 29, 2009, 01:52:17 AM »

Is anybody interested in the following cluster?

Wales/Native Briton  S9R4J

Logged

Y-DNA:  R-DF13*


Surname Project:  Blandford

Kit:  ft115893   Ysearch:  EYSPZ


Earliest Known Ancestor:  Thomas Blanford; Dorset, England; born 1648


Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2963


WWW
« Reply #43 on: April 29, 2009, 11:23:15 AM »

Is anybody interested in the following cluster?
Wales/Native Briton  S9R4J
I'm not sure what's "native" and what's not but I believe you are referring to the cluster identified by Robert Hughes that I describe below.  A lot of people from Wales have it so he called it originally Wales Modal 1, but there are some English people who have it so it is now called the "17-14-10" cluster.  When I looked a week ago at this, there are only a few people in the L21 project who seem to have it although they do seem to be from Wales.  There are lot of people in the Wales DNA project who have not tested for L21.  It would be helpful if they would then they'd know for sure if they fit into this.
Here is a pattern I looked for among the R-L21* in the L21* project and in Ysearch.   There is an off-modal combination at markers 448, 456 and 450.  This was discovered by a fellow named Robert Hughes.  He calls it the "17-14-10" cluster.   I actually only a found a few of this among R-L21* tested folks: 
FT85661   b-UK, appears in Nfld. 1791
FT62242   Sloop of Wales
FT36039   John Gough, 1805, Gilford, County Down, Ireland
I append "FT" to front of FTDNA kit #s..  I appended "YS" if it was something I found in YSearch.   
There are more people in the Wales DNA project that have this, but it doesn't look like many have tested or L21 yet.
Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
NealtheRed
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 930


« Reply #44 on: April 29, 2009, 11:48:35 AM »

Mike,

I see one Walsh on the L21 results that seems to match the Leinster cluster pretty well. Is that you?


Neal
Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2963


WWW
« Reply #45 on: April 29, 2009, 01:49:43 PM »

I see one Walsh on the L21 results that seems to match the Leinster cluster pretty well. Is that you?
I'm FTDNA N54638 and Ysearch RXYKH.  What kit # are you looking at?  I know I'm in the "super combo" cluster for 406S1 and 607 off-modal values.  Other than that I'm pretty close to WAMH which just about everyone R-P312 is.  What are the key off-modal values for Leinster?
Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
NealtheRed
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 930


« Reply #46 on: April 29, 2009, 02:04:54 PM »

At DYS389i and ii, the Leinster modal is defined at 14-30 respectively, which you have. You are also L21 and what is further interesting is that your line came to Leinster with the Cambro-Norman invasion.

We just got our first Welsh member, Owen, this past week. We actually have a number of members with Norman surnames that could be the result of Welsh soldiers coming over with the Normans. We all have 14-30 at that location.

The cluster is centered in Leinster and Northern England/Southern Scotland, both places of known Welsh settlement and kingdoms.
Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



cmblandford
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 85


« Reply #47 on: April 29, 2009, 02:56:12 PM »

 
Quote
but there are some English people who have it so it is now called the "17-14-10" cluster

I am not 17-14-10 but closer GD than any other cluster at 67 markers; much further off the Irish clusters.  Does this mean studying this 67 marker haplotype is a waste of time or could there be something there? 
Logged

Y-DNA:  R-DF13*


Surname Project:  Blandford

Kit:  ft115893   Ysearch:  EYSPZ


Earliest Known Ancestor:  Thomas Blanford; Dorset, England; born 1648


Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2963


WWW
« Reply #48 on: May 01, 2009, 01:55:14 PM »

I am not 17-14-10 but closer GD than any other cluster at 67 markers; much further off the Irish clusters.  Does this mean studying this 67 marker haplotype is a waste of time or could there be something there? 
Someone smarter than me or more proficient with Ysearch should probably look your situation.

I know that in general, we all suffer from the need to have more people in Ysearch with 67 markers.  The more there are, the better the chance for some hits that are real.   Patience is also needed as more people test and more upgrade.
Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2963


WWW
« Reply #49 on: May 01, 2009, 02:03:47 PM »

At DYS389i and ii, the Leinster modal is defined at 14-30 respectively, which you have. You are also L21 and what is further interesting is that your line came to Leinster with the Cambro-Norman invasion.

We just got our first Welsh member, Owen, this past week. We actually have a number of members with Norman surnames that could be the result of Welsh soldiers coming over with the Normans. We all have 14-30 at that location.

The cluster is centered in Leinster and Northern England/Southern Scotland, both places of known Welsh settlement and kingdoms.
Yes, this is interesting.  I do have the 14-30 at 391-1 and 2.  Also pretty close on the first 12 markers.  However,  I did the Ysearch comparison on 67 with the Leinster modal ID BFHRM and came up with a genetic distance of 19.  Seems like quite a bit.  Do you agree?  This is why I'm not sure that the Leinster definition is that helpful.  Perhaps there are a large number of R-L21* folks there, but many are only related in prior times.  I guess the multiple migrations and back and forth exchange across the Irish Sea caused that.
Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


SEO light theme by © Mustang forums. Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC

Page created in 0.077 seconds with 19 queries.