World Families Forums - R-L21 Clusters - can we identify a few?

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Author Topic: R-L21 Clusters - can we identify a few?  (Read 11599 times)
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #100 on: June 17, 2009, 11:58:19 PM »

The following list has not be deep clade R tested, although a number of them have tested to 67 markers.
My bet is that they are all R-L21* and they meet the 406S1=11/617=13 criteria for what some people call the "Ros Mascy Super Family Combo Group" (at least as I understand it.)    There are a lot of 19/394=15 and YCAIIa/b=18/23 on this list, which are both off-modal and both fairly slow moving. ....
Mike, so are you in both Wales Modal 3 group AND the Ros Mascy Super Family Combo Group? If they aren't the same thing, can you explain how they differ? ..
I don't think I ever answered you on this.   First thought I have is that these clusters are just that.  There may be some people that appear in two clusters, but really shouldn't be in one because of the good (bad) fortune of convergence of STR's.   A cluster is just a cluster, not a subclade, but a cluster may be a foreshadow of a subclade.

The second thought I have is that a modal is not really a cluster, it is just a string of most common values for any group.  Wales Modal 3 does have the same two signature off-modal values as the 11-13 Combo group - 406S1=11 & 617=13;    The essence of this thought is that people with a close GD to the Wales Modal 3 may very well be in the 11-13 Combo group as I am.  That is to be expected.  Both the Wales Modal 3 and 11-13 Combo signature pattern were defined with different perspectives, purposes and both are imperfect because of the nature of convergence.

When I look at the large number of R-L21* folks that fit the 11-13 signature pattern, I wonder if either
1) it is a very large and probably early or prolific branch of R-L21* or
2) 406S1 and 617 are variable enough that there is a lot of up/down movement and the 11-13 signature does not foretell a meaningful subclade.
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mcg11
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« Reply #101 on: June 18, 2009, 11:38:25 AM »

The following list has not be deep clade R tested, although a number of them have tested to 67 markers.

My bet is that they are all R-L21* and they meet the 406S1=11/617=13 criteria for what some people call the "Ros Mascy Super Family Combo Group" (at least as I understand it.)    There are a lot of 19/394=15 and YCAIIa/b=18/23 on this list, which are both off-modal and both fairly slow moving.....
 
Scots modal entries seem to be characterized by 531 = 12.  I am 10 at 406 S1 and 12 at 617 and am L-21+?
Just did a quick check.  406S1=10 & 617=12 are modals so there are 257 out of 603 (total R-L21*)* that have this configuration.     I selected for just 531=12 out of that group and came up with 44.  13 of those 44 were from Scotland and the rest were mostly unknown, but there was a scattering - Ireland, Norway, Sweden, Germany and England all had representatives with 531=12.

* Only about 320 of the 603 haplotypes have 67 markers. 

Really, you should look at it as 44 of 320 known R-L21* that have tested for 406S1 & 617 & 531 match you.   19 of those 44 were colonial type in origin so the true proportion of those matching this signature from Scotland is 13 out of 25 (of known European origin).   
  I hate to impose, but my Excel sorting skills are limited.  Is there someway you could create a list of those 44?  I would then converge them and share whatever I find with you, if you are interested?  The easiest would be to email me at: mcg11@frontiernet.net.  Note: I am not scots modal I personally have an 11 at 531.  thanks bob
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #102 on: June 18, 2009, 08:30:29 PM »

...  Is there someway you could create a list of those 44?  I would then converge them and share whatever I find with you, if you are interested? .....  Note: I am not scots modal I personally have an 11 at 531.  thanks bob
I will contact you.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #103 on: July 01, 2009, 07:10:52 PM »

The Leinster cluster of folks has done a lot of work and testing and have
interesting historic background from my home area, although I'm not one of them.

John McLaughlin describes the Leinster Modal and some of the background.
http://clanmaclochlainn.com/leinster.htm

He says the Leinster cluster's "main matches in Ireland are to be found in the
ancient kings and chieftains of Leinster, Kavanaghs, Kinsellas and O'Byrnes plus
a lot of other typically Leinster surnames. Several modals for this cluster can
be found on Ysearch (B9NW4 is one)."

I looked at the Leinster modal and tried to pull out the key off-modal (WAMH) marker signature. The most common lower panel markers I pulled out are >389/1 <448. The ">" just means greater than the modal (WAMH) and the "<" is less than the modal.

The following is the list of confirmed R-L21* that I found in FTDNA and Ysearch:
McKee unk unk unk 4VDRN
Ford Ireland Munster unk VNFX8
Carmack unk unk 2c2g PAMN9
Beatty Ireland Connacht 2c2g T78VB
Beattie unk unk 2c2g EZRDK
Aspel Ireland unk 2c2g 6Y9G8
D'Arcy Ireland Leinster 2c2g PXDEB
McHale Ireland Connacht 2c2g S7EM6
McLaughlin Ireland Ulster 2c2g 3JJR8
Fitzwilliam England Isle of Man 3c1g A7STZ
Downing England unknown 2c2g 4PSCK
Cienfuegos Spain Iberia 2c2g 59JDM
Stephens Scotland Strathclyde unk 62TQZ

McKee, Ford & Stephens have neither 67 markers tested nor 464x (that I know of),
but everyone else on the list has. Those with 67 markers are also <442 >557
>446 so there is a pretty clear signature amongst a group of R-L21* folks. Does
anyone knows if McKee, Ford or Stephens are upgrading to 67? It'd be interesting to see if they truly fit?  If they look like they do, they might also consider the 464x test.

As best I could, I gleaned from the 464x project those results and those that
tested, other than FitzWilliam(Quilliam) were the unusual 2c2g value for 464x.
Is it hard to know for sure the 464x results so anyone who sees errors in this,
let me know.

One more point. Remember this is a cluster within a subclade, but just a
"cluster." I'm not sure if Cienfuegos is in this group, although I can't say
for sure. He is 2c2g though, right? I'll post another topic on this shortly.
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