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Author Topic: Netherlands R-L21*  (Read 5851 times)
NealtheRed
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« Reply #50 on: October 27, 2009, 03:46:14 PM »

Mike, thanks for that observation. Interesting the one Dutchman is close to a Leinster cluster member.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



NealtheRed
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« Reply #51 on: October 27, 2009, 03:52:31 PM »

Hmm. De Haar also has high values at CDYa and b - I wonder if he could be L159+.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



rms2
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« Reply #52 on: October 27, 2009, 04:00:25 PM »

Mike, thanks for that observation. Interesting the one Dutchman is close to a Leinster cluster member.

Remember what he said he meant by "close", though. Less than a gd of 20, unless it is a whole lot less, is not really close.
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rms2
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« Reply #53 on: October 27, 2009, 04:01:22 PM »

Hmm. De Haar also has high values at CDYa and b - I wonder if he could be L159+.

I have noticed that L21+ guys tend to have higher CDY values in general.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #54 on: October 27, 2009, 04:13:38 PM »

Mike, thanks for that observation. Interesting the one Dutchman is close to a Leinster cluster member.

Remember what he said he meant by "close", though. Less than a gd of 20, unless it is a whole lot less, is not really close.

None of the Dutch guys had a GD of <=10 with an R-L21* guy.  Some were 15, 16, etc. that's why I used the words "not too far".  What's too far?  I don't know but the the Dutch guy that didn't "fit" was more like a GD of 30-40 to the closest  R-L21*.

As a comparison, we do have a couple of R-L21* guys with 67 length ht's that are 27, 28 and 29 GD off the R-L21* modal.

... um this is weird.  Seems like a mistake, but I'm getting that the closest R-L21* 67 ht guy (out of over 500) to the R-L21* modal (actually avg) is a GD of 7.   I guess you if you are a GD of 7, 8 or so you are an "inlier".  There are only four guys at GD of 7 so I guess being an "inlier" is a rare thing too.
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #55 on: October 27, 2009, 04:21:08 PM »

Hmm. De Haar also has high values at CDYa and b - I wonder if he could be L159+.
I have noticed that L21+ guys tend to have higher CDY values in general.
Here are the CDYa numbers:
257 at WAM

209 at +1 WAM, 114 at +2 WAM, 47 at +3 WAM and then another 17 above that

On the other side
110 at -1 WAM, 31 at -2 WAM and 7 at -3 WAM.

CDYb is not quite so pronounced but with greater overall variance.  In fact CDYb has the highest variance of any of the 67.

Which begs the question - Is CDYb allele tied to CDYa?  I know it is a multi-copy marker, but if CDYa mutates does that mean CDYb is likely to have mutated also.   I question my own GD calculations on CDY.  I treat it "step-wise" which means it can have a big impact on GD, but 464 isn't quite as fast but I treat it as an "infinite allele" after straightening out the sequence (I know this is how FTDNA does 464.)
« Last Edit: October 27, 2009, 04:25:30 PM by Mike » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
NealtheRed
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« Reply #56 on: October 27, 2009, 05:13:42 PM »

Yes, but CDYa and b are SIGNIFICANTLY higher in the Leinster cluster: at least 38 at CDYa and at least 39 at CDYb. This stands out to me. Furthermore, the values at 389i and ii are 14-31. The Leinster modal is 14-30 at that marker.

This Dutchman has both.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2009, 05:14:14 PM by NealtheRed » Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



NealtheRed
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« Reply #57 on: October 27, 2009, 05:15:58 PM »

I am well over a genetic distance of 20 to the Leinster modal too.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



vtilroe
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« Reply #58 on: October 29, 2009, 02:47:46 AM »

Mike I had a look at Holland just looking at the clade projects andm bearing in mind there are 2 L21s that have not joined the project, concluded that there is a significant split in clade balance in Holland coinciding with the former line of the Rhine (Note the Rhine in Holland has moved significantly further north in more recent times ).  L21 seems much higher on the south/west side at the expense og S21.  My guess is that L21 in south Holland may be around the 40% mark as a percentage of R1b1b2, somewhat similar to the German Rhineland.  Its probably a much lower percentage of Holland and Germany as a whole.       
I was banking on that a year ago too - that there ought to be a decent showing of L21 in the provinces of Zeeland, North Brabant, and East/West Flanders in Belgium.  Alas for me it was not meant to be...
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YSearch & MitoSearch: 2GXWW


yDNA: R-U106*


mtDNA: U5a1a1 (Genbank# GQ368895)


R-P312-WTY Project Admin http://tinyurl.com/daertg

Mike Walsh
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« Reply #59 on: October 29, 2009, 10:05:10 AM »

Mike I had a look at Holland just looking at the clade projects andm bearing in mind there are 2 L21s that have not joined the project, concluded that there is a significant split in clade balance in Holland coinciding with the former line of the Rhine (Note the Rhine in Holland has moved significantly further north in more recent times ).  L21 seems much higher on the south/west side at the expense og S21.  My guess is that L21 in south Holland may be around the 40% mark as a percentage of R1b1b2, somewhat similar to the German Rhineland.  Its probably a much lower percentage of Holland and Germany as a whole.      
I was banking on that a year ago too - that there ought to be a decent showing of L21 in the provinces of Zeeland, North Brabant, and East/West Flanders in Belgium.  Alas for me it was not meant to be...
I think you've all seen this, but just to be sure.  Hans De Beule has been studying I subclades and he found that I-L38's (I2b2) distribution seems to track with R-L21*'s.
http://www.dna-forums.org/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=1811
De Beule's hypothesis was that the Michelsberg culture must have carried both R-L21* and I-L38 out of Rhineland Palatinate and Suttgart areas.

Anyway, as it relates to the Netherlands, the .pdf at the link above has a distribution of I-L38 in the Netherlands in comparison with other I sub-clades.  He believes the other I sub-clades, which dominate the coastlands, are of Saxon origin whereas I-L38 is not.  I-L38 is found more in-land so that is where I'd expect the R-L21* to be found.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2009, 10:16:57 AM by Mike » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
rms2
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« Reply #60 on: December 29, 2009, 08:23:13 PM »

I count at least eight Netherlands R-L21* from Haplotree/My Matches pages. We only have five who are members of the R-L21 Plus Project, so there are at least three out there who still have not joined.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #61 on: December 29, 2009, 08:25:37 PM »

Don't you love Haplotree?
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



rms2
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« Reply #62 on: December 29, 2009, 09:26:07 PM »

Don't you love Haplotree?

I do, actually. It's not perfect, but it provides info we wouldn't otherwise have.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #63 on: December 30, 2009, 08:26:46 PM »

Don't you love Haplotree?

I do, actually. It's not perfect, but it provides info we wouldn't otherwise have.
Maybe I'm not using it correctly, but it doesn't seem to be much help to me, and it conflicts with the matches on the ancestral origins page.
But then again when they display the few R1b1b2a1b matches I have, they don't use an asterisk, so I can't be sure whether they have been fully deep clade tested or not.
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rms2
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« Reply #64 on: December 30, 2009, 08:34:42 PM »

Don't you love Haplotree?

I do, actually. It's not perfect, but it provides info we wouldn't otherwise have.
Maybe I'm not using it correctly, but it doesn't seem to be much help to me, and it conflicts with the matches on the ancestral origins page.
But then again when they display the few R1b1b2a1b matches I have, they don't use an asterisk, so I can't be sure whether they have been fully deep clade tested or not.

That's right. All of the R1b1b2a1b entries have not necessarily been tested for L21. In the same way, it's not safe to read the R1b1b2 entries as R-M269* or the R1b1 entries as R-P25*, etc.

The R1b1b2a1b entries have all been tested for U152, SRY2627, M153, and M222, though. So, at least we know they are negative for all of them.

We just had a guy join the R-P312 and Subclades Project this evening who has the green "R1b1b2a1b" but who has not yet been tested for L21.
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rms2
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« Reply #65 on: June 17, 2011, 07:08:33 PM »

Just found a new Dutch R-L21 in the Benelux Project: Woertman, kit 179252.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/benelux/default.aspx?section=yresults

I think the Ysearch is ZWQFS.

I am trying to recruit him for the R-L21 Plus Project, of course.
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rms2
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« Reply #66 on: June 18, 2011, 02:11:03 PM »

Just found a new Dutch R-L21 in the Benelux Project: Woertman, kit 179252.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/benelux/default.aspx?section=yresults

I think the Ysearch is ZWQFS.

I am trying to recruit him for the R-L21 Plus Project, of course.

Woertman has joined the R-L21 Plus Project.
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rms2
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« Reply #67 on: June 21, 2011, 08:42:39 PM »

I had to switch Woertman to the Germany category. Turns out his y-dna ancestor came from Menne in Nordrhein-Westfalen, near Warburg.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2011, 08:53:59 PM by rms2 » Logged

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