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Author Topic: R1b1b2's expansion into Europe ???  (Read 3640 times)
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2009, 09:56:41 AM »

.... For U-152, most evidence points on a South German/Swiss origin, and on a migration following the big rivers of the area, notably Danube, Rhine, Rhone (note that the name of the two rivers are the same!), Po and probably the Seine as well.....
You are right, there were Gothic incursions back towards the Ukraine.

Do you have any other evidence of U-152's origin?  Does U-152 have its greatest diversity in the Southern Germany/Switzerland area?  How do we know it didn't originate further east, along the Danube?
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Jafety R1b-U152
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« Reply #26 on: April 14, 2009, 11:56:52 AM »

Unfortunately - as far as I know - no comprehensive data on R1b1b2 subclades and individual testing is not representative, as we noted many times.
If we start from where U106 and P312 is most diverse, more or less the Rhine valley comes as a solution. U152 is clearly connected with La Tene and the following Celtic migrations so it is reasonable to say that it should have originated somewhere in the Northern "piedmont" of the Alps. If that was Basel, Zurich, Munich or Vienna, I dont know of course, but I would not put it more east.
If R1b1b2 migration was a result pf neolithic migration, I think the Rössen culture is a very good candidate for the common homeland of U106 and P312.

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The Rössen Culture is a Central European culture of the middle Neolithic (4,600–4,300 BC). The Rössen Culture has been identified in 11 of the 16 states of Germany (it is only absent from the Northern part of the North German Plain), but also in the southeast Low Countries, northeast France, northern Switzerland and a small part of Austria

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Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b4 (S28/U-152) L2 test pending
Earliest known paternal ancestor: Matthias Fejer, b. 1819, Jaszarokszallas, Jasz county, Central Hungary
MtDNA: U4 (Western Siberian Ugric)
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« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2009, 12:14:20 PM »

To Jafety R1b-U152:

You seem to have all the answers for R-U152. Except for the words, you add on some of your posts, “should have” and “could have.” Let me know when you do some original R-U152 research and prove all of these “should have” and “could have” statements.

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Jean M
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« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2009, 01:08:24 PM »

Quote from: Jafety R1b-U152 link=topic=8581.msg110736#msg110736
.. genes .. originate where they are the most diverse
That is the general rule that geneticists now go by, and it's a good one. However migrations back and forth can muddy the picture. The experts are not prepared to be too precise on location as yet.

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The some outlier R1b1b2 and R1b1b1 in Central Asia could have arrived there with farming.

Not really. Farming spread much earlier. 
« Last Edit: April 14, 2009, 01:09:52 PM by Jean M » Logged
Jafety R1b-U152
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« Reply #29 on: April 15, 2009, 03:37:00 AM »

Glenn, I always try to put my views in order to be contested, because truth is most times the outcome of debate. Mostly no one has the 100% truth, especially in this "industry". Some of my thoughts are correct and some are not, the same with you. Some are because of information-gap (not enough sample, no access to databases, bad MRCA estimates etc.) and some a result of bad logic. But if we keep arguing, everyone would give up some of his thoughs while some of his points would be accepted by all others. That is how it should go, not like the way you were banned from mailing list only because promoting non-mainstream ideas.

I think "could have"s and "should have"s can not be finally settled until clear and definite MRCA ages will be presented for the various lineages. Even researchers, who are geneticists and not the "amateur genalogy community" can not agree in such dates. I have seen very different estimates for the same lineage in the same papers, depending on which calculation method is used.

So Jean's point that R1b1b2 into Central Asia is later than neolithic is again depends solely on the uncertain time estimates. If it would be safely proven, that R1b1b2 is no more than 6000 years old (around 4000 BC), then I would join in to label it as Proto-IE, expanding from Anatolia. But it is not yet the case.

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Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b4 (S28/U-152) L2 test pending
Earliest known paternal ancestor: Matthias Fejer, b. 1819, Jaszarokszallas, Jasz county, Central Hungary
MtDNA: U4 (Western Siberian Ugric)
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #30 on: April 15, 2009, 09:26:32 AM »

Glenn, I always try to put my views in order to be contested, because truth is most times the outcome of debate. Mostly no one has the 100% truth, especially in this "industry". Some of my thoughts are correct and some are not, the same with you. ......  if we keep arguing......That is how it should go, not like the way you were banned from mailing list only because promoting non-mainstream ideas.

I think "could have"s and "should have"s can not be finally settled until clear and definite MRCA ages will be presented for the various lineages. ....
Your arguments are welcome be they mainstream or not.

Please take this as constructive criticism.  You have strong opinions, or at least you state them as if you believe they are true without a doubt.  I'm not sure if this is your intention.

Let me give you an example of one of your statements below in this thread.  You made this statement as you conclude this particular post.
Quote from: Jafety R1b-U152
There is no reason to put R1b1b2 into Central Asia, it is quite clear that it should have originated in the Turkey/Lebanon area during the Neolithic.
The use of phrases like "there is no reason" and "it is quite clear" indicate that you are very firm in your contention.  To the contrary, many disagree with you on the contention, "R1b1b2 ...originated in the Turkey/Lebanon...".    Your hypothesis is fine and even though I disagree it is most likely, I think it is possible and definitely worthy of consideration.

Your use of the phrases indicate your hypothesis is certain, even though you may be in the minority.  That's all okay, but then you should immediately, in the same post, backup your strong statements with some strong reasoning, at least at a high level.  In the example above, you ended your post without any reasoning to backup your statement.  It almost appears like you are pulling stuff out of thin air.  I think in reality, as threads develop, you do have a rationale, but you should articulate your rationale with your conclusion, particularly if it is controversial or extremely firm.

Also, the firmer and more controversial your statement, you should expect to give stronger reasoning and evidence.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2009, 12:12:10 PM by Mike » Logged

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« Reply #31 on: April 15, 2009, 12:04:58 PM »

"But if we keep arguing"

Industry arguments, I don't want to go backward to that stage in the industry. I think perhaps you were not around for that stage in this industries development, and that you do not know how troublesome a period that was for genetic genealogy. No, we have grown past that argumentative stage. We can disagree, but constant argument is of no benefit to anyone.

We are past that stage in genetic genealogy! Please prove your points through original genetic research.
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Jafety R1b-U152
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« Reply #32 on: April 16, 2009, 02:58:15 AM »

Thanks Mike for the positive critics, you are right, I would try to make "soft" arguments in the future.
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Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b4 (S28/U-152) L2 test pending
Earliest known paternal ancestor: Matthias Fejer, b. 1819, Jaszarokszallas, Jasz county, Central Hungary
MtDNA: U4 (Western Siberian Ugric)
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