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Author Topic: R1b1b2's expansion into Europe ???  (Read 3754 times)
Mike Walsh
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« on: March 11, 2009, 01:45:11 PM »

There as has been a lot of discussion on various forums about the origin of R1b1b2 and its expansion across Europe.    The following web site has a nice summary perspective that a includes discussion of how R1b1b2 plays.
http://www.buildinghistory.org/articles/peoplingeurope.shtml
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« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2009, 01:20:58 AM »

Anyone know who Jean Manco is? Manco mentions Richard Stevens in the body of the text and Vincent Vizzaccaro in note #48. He or she must be keeping up with the discussions on some of these forums, boards, and lists. Of course, even those references are several years old.

(Page created by Jean Manco 5 March 2009. Last revised 11 March 2009)

"It was Richard Stevens who put the two halves of the story together in various online discussions. 48"

48.

 A.A. Foster, Variations of R1b Ydna in Europe: Distribution and Origins (2005 online); Vincent Vizzaccaro, What do we know about R1b1b? (Online 2006); C. Lalueza-Fox et al., Unravelling migrations in the steppe: mitochondrial DNA sequences from ancient Central Asians,  Proceedings of the Royal Society of London B, vol. 271 (2004), pp. 941–947.
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vtilroe
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« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2009, 03:02:32 AM »

Anyone know who Jean Manco is? Manco mentions Richard Stevens in the body of the text and Vincent Vizzaccaro in note #48. He or she must be keeping up with the discussions on some of these forums, boards, and lists. Of course, even those references are several years old.

(Page created by Jean Manco 5 March 2009. Last revised 11 March 2009)

"It was Richard Stevens who put the two halves of the story together in various online discussions. 48"

48.

 A.A. Foster, Variations of R1b Ydna in Europe: Distribution and Origins (2005 online); Vincent Vizzaccaro, What do we know about R1b1b? (Online 2006); C. Lalueza-Fox et al., Unravelling migrations in the steppe: mitochondrial DNA sequences from ancient Central Asians,  Proceedings of the Royal Society of London B, vol. 271 (2004), pp. 941–947.

She's a building historian and an active member of dna-forums.org (website: http://www.buildinghistory.org/jean/).

Her reason for writing that summery: "I've created it mainly for myself. I have such a terrible memory that writing things down is the only way I can get a grip on them. This was done at speed before it all went out of my head. ... It's not intended for print publication. I would have written it in a more academic way for a scholarly journal, and cut the footnotes for a popular magazine. As it's just for fun, I can please myself."

She's been adding/correcting/enhancing the initial draft over the last few days with feedback from other forum members.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2009, 03:05:07 AM by vtilroe » Logged

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yDNA: R-U106*


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GoldenHind
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« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2009, 02:18:20 PM »

Anyone know who Jean Manco is? Manco mentions Richard Stevens in the body of the text and Vincent Vizzaccaro in note #48. He or she must be keeping up with the discussions on some of these forums, boards, and lists. Of course, even those references are several years old.

(Page created by Jean Manco 5 March 2009. Last revised 11 March 2009)

"It was Richard Stevens who put the two halves of the story together in various online discussions. 48"

48.

 A.A. Foster, Variations of R1b Ydna in Europe: Distribution and Origins (2005 online); Vincent Vizzaccaro, What do we know about R1b1b? (Online 2006); C. Lalueza-Fox et al., Unravelling migrations in the steppe: mitochondrial DNA sequences from ancient Central Asians,  Proceedings of the Royal Society of London B, vol. 271 (2004), pp. 941–947.
Well, I know who Vince V. is, but who is this Richard Stevens dude?
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susanrosine
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« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2009, 03:12:47 PM »

He is an R1b1b2 expert. Runs the FTNDA P312 and L21 projects. And much more!!
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Dad: JAMES:  Ysearch QSCQ3;  R-P312, L21+ (R1b1b2a1b5*)
Dad: mitosearch QSCQ3; T1a; no matches HVR2 or FGS
Mom's brother: LEWTER: Ysearch FYFDA;  R-U106, L48+ (R1b1b2a1a*)
Mom's brother: mitosearch FYFDA, U5b2; 1 exac
GoldenHind
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« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2009, 07:53:38 PM »

He is an R1b1b2 expert. Runs the FTNDA P312 and L21 projects. And much more!!
Oh, THAT Richard Stevens.
Sorry, I was having a bit of fun with Rich.
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rms2
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« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2009, 07:55:25 PM »

He is an R1b1b2 expert. Runs the FTNDA P312 and L21 projects. And much more!!

Expert? I wish!

I'm just trying hard to keep up with it all.

I'm really the Benny Hill of genetic genealogy.

Oh, Susan, I sent emails urging two of the three Welshmen you asked about to join the Wales DNA Project. For some reason I have been unable to get into the remaining man's contact page to get his email address. As soon as that changes, I will also urge him to join.

« Last Edit: March 12, 2009, 07:59:21 PM by rms2 » Logged

susanrosine
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« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2009, 07:58:26 PM »

He is an R1b1b2 expert. Runs the FTNDA P312 and L21 projects. And much more!!
Oh, THAT Richard Stevens.
Sorry, I was having a bit of fun with Rich.
Oh, and here I was, taking you seriously!!! HA HA well I'm glad you know who he is. And YES Rich, I consider you to be an expert. Let's just say you know a heck of a lot more than I do--that makes you an expert LOL!!
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Dad: JAMES:  Ysearch QSCQ3;  R-P312, L21+ (R1b1b2a1b5*)
Dad: mitosearch QSCQ3; T1a; no matches HVR2 or FGS
Mom's brother: LEWTER: Ysearch FYFDA;  R-U106, L48+ (R1b1b2a1a*)
Mom's brother: mitosearch FYFDA, U5b2; 1 exac
GoldenHind
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« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2009, 03:57:15 PM »

He is an R1b1b2 expert. Runs the FTNDA P312 and L21 projects. And much more!!
Oh, THAT Richard Stevens.
Sorry, I was having a bit of fun with Rich.
Oh, and here I was, taking you seriously!!! HA HA well I'm glad you know who he is. And YES Rich, I consider you to be an expert. Let's just say you know a heck of a lot more than I do--that makes you an expert LOL!!
I'm afraid many people take some of my tongue in cheek comments seriously. So you're not alone. I DO hope Vince T. is not seriously worried abour people wanting to burn him at the stake.
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vtilroe
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« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2009, 07:29:55 PM »

He is an R1b1b2 expert. Runs the FTNDA P312 and L21 projects. And much more!!
Oh, THAT Richard Stevens.
Sorry, I was having a bit of fun with Rich.
Oh, and here I was, taking you seriously!!! HA HA well I'm glad you know who he is. And YES Rich, I consider you to be an expert. Let's just say you know a heck of a lot more than I do--that makes you an expert LOL!!
I'm afraid many people take some of my tongue in cheek comments seriously. So you're not alone. I DO hope Vince T. is not seriously worried abour people wanting to burn him at the stake.
As long as I have my marshmallows, I'll be ok.  :)
« Last Edit: March 13, 2009, 07:30:29 PM by vtilroe » Logged

YSearch & MitoSearch: 2GXWW


yDNA: R-U106*


mtDNA: U5a1a1 (Genbank# GQ368895)


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GoldenHind
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« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2009, 02:18:59 PM »

He is an R1b1b2 expert. Runs the FTNDA P312 and L21 projects. And much more!!
Oh, THAT Richard Stevens.
Sorry, I was having a bit of fun with Rich.
Oh, and here I was, taking you seriously!!! HA HA well I'm glad you know who he is. And YES Rich, I consider you to be an expert. Let's just say you know a heck of a lot more than I do--that makes you an expert LOL!!
I'm afraid many people take some of my tongue in cheek comments seriously. So you're not alone. I DO hope Vince T. is not seriously worried abour people wanting to burn him at the stake.
As long as I have my marshmallows, I'll be ok.  :)
As long as you like them well done.
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Jean M
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« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2009, 01:22:29 PM »

Thanks for posting a link to my article Mike. I'm here now to explain that it has been revised endlessly since I first threw it up and is now more or less fit to be seen, thanks to all the ideas I have absorbed from the various online communities.

It proposes hypotheses which remain to be properly tested. I hope that much will become clearer as more subclades are identified and tested for, more  aDNA studies are done, and databases grow bigger. 
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2009, 06:55:03 PM »

It proposes hypotheses which remain to be properly tested. I hope that much will become clearer as more subclades are identified and tested for, more  aDNA studies are done, and databases grow bigger. 
Jean, you've done a great job at summarizing what all appears to be the most logical possibilities.

I find the R-M269 subclades fascinating in that they had the very explosive growth sometime between the Neolithic and the end of the Bronze ages.   Seems like U106, some P312* and P312 subclades of U152 and L21 all popped into Europe at the same time.  Do you think they came from different directions or were they all quite mixed as they moved into Central and Western Europe?
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Jean M
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« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2009, 08:20:42 PM »

I cannot claim any brilliant insights on these subclades. You need V V!

His latest distribution map of U106 shows U106 all the way from the shores of the Black Sea. So it was presumably among the migrants before they left the Black Sea area. From its wide corridor, it seems to take both the deduced Proto-Germanic route up the Dniester AND the presumed Proto-Celtic-Italic route up the Danube. It ends up in Wales (surely Celtic!) as well as among Germanic-speaking peoples.

The only P312 subclade distribution map that I can find does not have that corridor to the Black Sea. That may just reflect the balance of people joining the project though, so I'd rather not speculate. 
« Last Edit: April 13, 2009, 05:57:13 PM by Jean M » Logged
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2009, 09:00:42 PM »

.... shows U106 all the way from the shores of the Black Sea. So it was presumably among the migrants before they left the Black Sea area. From its wide corridor, it seems to take both the deduced Proto-Germanic route up the Dniester AND the presumed Proto-Celtic-Italic route up the Danube. It ends up in Wales (surely Celtic!) as well as among Germanic-speaking peoples.
U106 in Wales could be Normans.   I'm not sure what the frequency of U106 is versus P312 subclades in Wales, but if it was low or lower than Hg I I'd say there is a good bet it could be related to Normans... or maybe some stray Anglo-Saxons.

What I was fishing for, which you didn't bit all the way on, was is it possible that U106 was the initiator of the Germanic branch out of PIE?   Since there appeared to be more integration of Yamnaya with the Neolithic folks, perhaps Hg I sub-clades and some R1a in there sooner or later......  just thought maybe U106 took the northerly route through Poland while P312 went south and up the Danube.  Just a thought.   Your thought appears to be that U106 was in on both routes.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2009, 09:05:12 PM by Mike » Logged

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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2009, 09:15:54 PM »

.....   The following web site has a nice summary perspective....
http://www.buildinghistory.org/articles/peoplingeurope.shtml
Quote from: Jean M
.......  The beakers appear in the archaeology (and seem to belong to a new, intrusive culture) in the Copper-Bronze Ages. Then in the Iron Age the Celts (and other IE-speaking peoples) appear in history in much the same places as the beakers. In many places there is an archaeological succession from Bronze to Iron Age cultures with no indication of discontinuity e.g. Beaker to Urnfield to Hallstatt to La Tène. So the finger points at the Beaker people as at least one of the carriers of PIE westwards from the Black Sea area. That of course depends on accepting the Mallory/Anthony identification of the time and place of PIE. ....
The fellow on the other forum, Hansdb, who has tied I-L38 to R-L21 in an expansion along the Rhine and then an expansion northward into the British Isles, sent a letter to a German scientist to get his opinion.  Hansdb posted his reply, which I quote below.  He does indicate that the Bell Beaker folks are a likely candidate.e down (northward direction) the Rhine and up into the Isles.

Quote from: Hansdb
Dear Mr De Beule .... I can only comment on the distribution of I-L38 in relation to possibly contemporaneous archaeological groups.  ....
If there is a certain correlation between I-L38 and R-L21, the distribution centers of the latter in the the Rhine region and the British Isles resemble the Bell Beaker distribution, which shows a similar density pattern (with the exception of Ireland).
The first Bell Beakers (AOO) appear as early as 2600 cal BC.  .....
Best regards & Happy Easter, (Dr.) Dirk Fabian
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« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2009, 10:25:08 PM »

I cannot claim any brilliant insights on these subclades. You need V V!

His latest distribution map of U106 shows U106 all the way from the shores of the Black Sea. So it was presumably among the migrants before they left the Black Sea area. From its wide corridor, it seems to take both the deduced Proto-Germanic route up the Dniester AND the presumed Proto-Celtic-Italic route up the Danube. It ends up in Wales (surely Celtic!) as well as among Germanic-speaking peoples.

The only P312 subclade distribution map that I can find does not have that corridor to the Black Sea. That may just reflect the balance of people joining the project though, so I'd rather not speculate. 
The link to the U106 map isn't working for me. Is it the one someone else posted on the dna forum? If so, unfortunately there isn't anything comparable for P312 which includes all its subclades. People tend to map each P312 subclade in isolation, so one must look at maps for P312*, L21, U152 and several others and try to put them together. Even then, those maps are entirely dependent on who has joined the various FTDNA projects, which is extremely biased toward the British Isles with the western part of Germany a distant second, and can hardly be taken as a valid scientific sample. The other difficulty is that P312 itself was only discovered last year, and L21 a few months ago, and thus they both are several years behind U106, for which I believe testing has been going on since 2005.
If you are not aware of it, you may be interested to learn that the P312 subclade U152 has turned up in an ethnic Kipchuk tribesman in Kazakhstan.
If Vince V. did indeed do the U106 map, perhaps he could be percuaded to do a similar one  combining all the P312 subclades. It would not be an easy task.
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susanrosine
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« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2009, 12:08:20 AM »

.... shows U106 all the way from the shores of the Black Sea. So it was presumably among the migrants before they left the Black Sea area. From its wide corridor, it seems to take both the deduced Proto-Germanic route up the Dniester AND the presumed Proto-Celtic-Italic route up the Danube. It ends up in Wales (surely Celtic!) as well as among Germanic-speaking peoples.
U106 in Wales could be Normans.   I'm not sure what the frequency of U106 is versus P312 subclades in Wales, but if it was low or lower than Hg I I'd say there is a good bet it could be related to Normans... or maybe some stray Anglo-Saxons.

What I was fishing for, which you didn't bit all the way on, was is it possible that U106 was the initiator of the Germanic branch out of PIE?   Since there appeared to be more integration of Yamnaya with the Neolithic folks, perhaps Hg I sub-clades and some R1a in there sooner or later......  just thought maybe U106 took the northerly route through Poland while P312 went south and up the Danube.  Just a thought.   Your thought appears to be that U106 was in on both routes.
So far, the Wales DNA project is showing VERY low frequency of U106. We have a Picton man who is U160 (and L48, and L47!) and he can trace his ancestry back to the Pictons who came to Wales from ELSEWHERE--so not indigenous Welsh. We have three others who are U106, but their lines have not been traced back all that far, so who knows how long their ancestry was Welsh.
We have more Hg I1 and Hg I2b1 than we do R-U106!!!
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/WalesDNA/default.aspx
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Dad: JAMES:  Ysearch QSCQ3;  R-P312, L21+ (R1b1b2a1b5*)
Dad: mitosearch QSCQ3; T1a; no matches HVR2 or FGS
Mom's brother: LEWTER: Ysearch FYFDA;  R-U106, L48+ (R1b1b2a1a*)
Mom's brother: mitosearch FYFDA, U5b2; 1 exac
Jafety R1b-U152
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« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2009, 06:02:26 AM »

First of all, I agree with GoldenHind that bias of database can mess up things. Have a look at Hg Q project: most samples are from Britain and Eastern US, so if there were no scientific papers on the South Siberian and Native American populations, we could have thought its a British lineage...

On U106, on the Black Sea it can easily be a Gothic/Germanic marker, I do not think we can originate it from there. I still think that the Upper Danube/Middle Rhine area, more or less today's Baden-Württemberg and Rhineland-Pfalz is quite a good candidate for U-106, L-21 and U-152 (thus probably P312) homeland.

A single Kipchak tribesman is not a proof of Central Asian/Scythian origin, either. Kipchak tribes attacked the Carpathian Basin from 1000 to 1240 continuously, some even settled in Hungary, but some where routed. Thus kipchak U-152 can be from Hungary, where there is around 20% R1b1b2 (like me for example).
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Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b4 (S28/U-152) L2 test pending
Earliest known paternal ancestor: Matthias Fejer, b. 1819, Jaszarokszallas, Jasz county, Central Hungary
MtDNA: U4 (Western Siberian Ugric)
Jean M
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« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2009, 06:00:47 PM »

His latestdistribution map of U106
The link to the U106 map isn't working for me.

Sorry about that. I've fixed the link.

Quote
Is it the one someone else posted on the dna forum?
Yes - that's the one. And it is by V. V., as he confirmed on another thread.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2009, 08:06:17 PM »


A single Kipchak tribesman is not a proof of Central Asian/Scythian origin, either. Kipchak tribes attacked the Carpathian Basin from 1000 to 1240 continuously, some even settled in Hungary, but some where routed. Thus kipchak U-152 can be from Hungary, where there is around 20% R1b1b2 (like me for example).
That may be the case. But as I believe he is the only Kipchup tribesman yet tested for U152, he also might indicate the subclade was born in the Black Sea area. Until and unless there is further SNP testing in the region, we simply will not know the answer.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2009, 09:19:08 PM »

... On U106, on the Black Sea it can easily be a Gothic/Germanic marker, I do not think we can originate it from there. I still think that the Upper Danube/Middle Rhine area.....
Why can't we originate U-106 from the Black Sea area?   Are there major migrations (archeologically demonstrated) from the Upper Danube expanding back east to the Black Sea?  I am not familiar with any.
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Jafety R1b-U152
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« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2009, 03:56:19 AM »

Why can't we originate U-106 from the Black Sea area?   Are there major migrations (archeologically demonstrated) from the Upper Danube expanding back east to the Black Sea?  I am not familiar with any.

Not from the Danubian area, but the East German, especially Gothic migrations are well-attested in the 2-4th centuries AD, from Poland/Vistula area to the Black Sea. They ruled todays Ukraine and then went further south to the Balkans. However, there were Gots who stayed in Ukraine and then went to the Crimean Peninsula, escaping the Nomad raiders (Huns, Avars, Magyars, Mongols etc.). Germanic Goth language was still spoken in the 18th century there.

For U-152, most evidence points on a South German/Swiss origin, and on a migration following the big rivers of the area, notably Danube, Rhine, Rhone (note that the name of the two rivers are the same!), Po and probably the Seine as well. The Eastern Celtic migration down the Danube is a very good and historically attested origin for U152 (andd L21) east of the Germanic world (Hungary, Balkans etc.).

There is no reason to put R1b1b2 into Central Asia, it is quite clear that it should have originated in the Turkey/Lebanon area during the Neolithic.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2009, 03:57:28 AM by Jafety R1b-U152 » Logged

Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b4 (S28/U-152) L2 test pending
Earliest known paternal ancestor: Matthias Fejer, b. 1819, Jaszarokszallas, Jasz county, Central Hungary
MtDNA: U4 (Western Siberian Ugric)
Jean M
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« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2009, 07:23:52 AM »

There is no reason to put R1b1b2 into Central Asia

A central Asia origin is possible for R itself, but southwest Asia seems to be the current favourite for the origin of R1 and R1b1b2. R1a is thought to originate on the Eurasian steppes.

Quote
it is quite clear that it should have originated in the Turkey/Lebanon area during the Neolithic.

Really? You are rather more precise on location than the experts are prepared to be, though your dating fits theirs. Vincent Vizachero has given a very rough date of 4,000 BC (or between 6,000 and 2,000 BC) as the date it arose. 
« Last Edit: April 14, 2009, 07:24:31 AM by Jean M » Logged
Jafety R1b-U152
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« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2009, 09:41:09 AM »

Really? You are rather more precise on location than the experts are prepared to be, though your dating fits theirs. Vincent Vizachero has given a very rough date of 4,000 BC (or between 6,000 and 2,000 BC) as the date it arose. 

Going back to my favourite argument, that languages/genes etc. use to be originate where they are the most diverse, R1b1b2's most likely origin (no one can be 100% sure) is Turkey/Lebanon - why?

1.R1b1a (M18) is found in Lebanon; R1b1c (M335) is found in Turkey. R1b1b (P297) is more widespread (with its subgroups). R1b1* (P25) was found frequently in Cameroon and Hausa (Chadic speakers) which is again pointing on a "close-to-North-Africa" origin, the Levant area is thus fitting for these early lineages.

2. R1b1b1 was found at low frequencies in Southwest Asia, Balkans and Central Asia. The center of this area is again Turkey/Levant. R1b1b2 should have appeared no far from its brother clade. R1b1b2* (P312-,U106-) spread also fits into an Anatolian origin.

No one can be sure about the time of course, but it is more or less fitting the neolithic theory. The some outlayer R1b1b2 and R1b1b1 in Central Asia could have arrived there with farming, as E-M78 is also found as far as Uyghurstan (Tocharia).
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Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b4 (S28/U-152) L2 test pending
Earliest known paternal ancestor: Matthias Fejer, b. 1819, Jaszarokszallas, Jasz county, Central Hungary
MtDNA: U4 (Western Siberian Ugric)
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