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vtilroe
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« on: March 07, 2009, 11:37:56 PM »

I have just found out via another forum that the Benelux Project finally has an L21+ member.

His ySearch entry, UJSFX, lists his earliest known ancestor as Didderic Tolinc, from 's-Hertogenbosch, Netherlands, circa 1200 CE, which I believe is far too early to be associated with the so-called "Flight of the Wild Geese" events that brought Irish infantrymen to the Continent during the 16-18th centuries.

Also, is it by mere coincidence that 's-Hertogenbosch is located just south of the Rhine River?
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rms2
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« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2009, 01:13:58 PM »

I have just found out via another forum that the Benelux Project finally has an L21+ member.

His ySearch entry, UJSFX, lists his earliest known ancestor as Didderic Tolinc, from 's-Hertogenbosch, Netherlands, circa 1200 CE, which I believe is far too early to be associated with the so-called "Flight of the Wild Geese" events that brought Irish infantrymen to the Continent during the 16-18th centuries.

Also, is it by mere coincidence that 's-Hertogenbosch is located just south of the Rhine River?



Thanks, Vince! He has joined the project, and I added him to the R-L21* Map after I saw your email this morning.

I realize he's just one Nederlander thus far, but he links up very nicely with our Rhinelanders, forming the sort of chain that archaeologist Alan Reilly predicted for L21 a few months back.

I hope we pick up some more from that area!
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2009, 01:48:06 PM »

I have just found out via another forum that the Benelux Project finally has an L21+ member.

His ySearch entry, UJSFX, lists his earliest known ancestor as Didderic Tolinc, from 's-Hertogenbosch, Netherlands, circa 1200 CE, which I believe is far too early to be associated with the so-called "Flight of the Wild Geese" events that brought Irish infantrymen to the Continent during the 16-18th centuries.

Also, is it by mere coincidence that 's-Hertogenbosch is located just south of the Rhine River?



Thanks, Vince! He has joined the project, and I added him to the R-L21* Map after I saw your email this morning.

I realize he's just one Nederlander thus far, but he links up very nicely with our Rhinelanders, forming the sort of chain that archaeologist Alan Reilly predicted for L21 a few months back.

I hope we pick up some more from that area!
Oddly enough, just yesterday Alan Reilly was looking for an explanation for the lack of L21 in the Low Countries.
Not so fast, Alan.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2009, 01:53:13 PM »

It just occurred to me that the L21 out of Ireland crowd will claim he was a descendant of a wandering Irish medieval monk, their general fall back position.
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rms2
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« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2009, 02:24:33 PM »

It just occurred to me that the L21 out of Ireland crowd will claim he was a descendant of a wandering Irish medieval monk, their general fall back position.

They can try that, I guess. But it seems to me the more data we accumulate the more remote and implausible that possibility becomes.
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rms2
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« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2009, 02:28:12 PM »

Oddly enough, just yesterday Alan Reilly was looking for an explanation for the lack of L21 in the Low Countries.
Not so fast, Alan.

Yeah, he and I have discussed that via email. It is possible that later incursions of R-U106, some kind of Germanic clade of what is now called R-P312*, and maybe some I1 have effaced much of the track of R-L21* through the Low Countries.

But then again, maybe we just don't have enough Low Countries test subjects yet and more L21+ will show up there.
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vtilroe
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« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2009, 03:01:30 PM »

Oddly enough, just yesterday Alan Reilly was looking for an explanation for the lack of L21 in the Low Countries.
Not so fast, Alan.

Yeah, he and I have discussed that via email. It is possible that later incursions of R-U106, some kind of Germanic clade of what is now called R-P312*, and maybe some I1 have effaced much of the track of R-L21* through the Low Countries.

But then again, maybe we just don't have enough Low Countries test subjects yet and more L21+ will show up there.

To my knowledge, only 4 P312+ (U152-) in the Benelux Project have been tested for L21 so far.

That isn't nearly enough to infer a trend, yet.
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rms2
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« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2009, 07:18:53 PM »

To my knowledge, only 4 P312+ (U152-) in the Benelux Project have been tested for L21 so far.

That isn't nearly enough to infer a trend, yet.

I have six R-P312* in the Low Countries on my R-P312* Map. That is still too few, but I must admit I was beginning to wonder.

« Last Edit: March 08, 2009, 07:19:26 PM by rms2 » Logged

Mike Walsh
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« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2009, 03:22:38 PM »

To my knowledge, only 4 P312+ (U152-) in the Benelux Project have been tested for L21 so far.
That isn't nearly enough to infer a trend, yet.
I have six R-P312* in the Low Countries on my R-P312* Map. That is still too few, but I must admit I was beginning to wonder.
I think the Low Countries (basically Benelux - Belgium, The Netherlands and Luxembourg) are a critical area of testing for R1b1b2 and for L21 in particular.  We know there are number of R-U106 types there.  There are some R-P312* and at least a couple of R-L21*.

I don't expect R-L21* to be extremely numerous there but if the diversity is great and has any kind of links to some of our more familiar Isles' clusters then may be we have a found a pathway of R-L21* into the Isles.

Of course some or many R-L21* first expanding into the Isles could have come from Normandy or further out on the Amorican Peninsula, but those might have also been old Britons fleeing England during the Anglo-Saxon invasion/immigration period.  I wouldn't think the Low Countries would be a good candidate for Britons to migrate TO during this period.  Therefore, L21+ in the Low Countries might have been there before they arrived in the Isles.

Many of you may be knowledgable about the Belgian DNA project.
http://www.brabant-dna.org/joomla/

It doesn't look like they are testing for L21+ but does anyone know how to download the haplotypes for P312+?   Perhaps I can decipher any cluster affinities.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 03:26:53 PM by Mike » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
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« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2009, 04:14:07 PM »

It was specifically stated on another forum that the Brabant project was not testing for L21, and that all those who are L21 by default are included in the P312 list.
It is also interesting to note that P312 outnumbers U106 so far in that project.
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rms2
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« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2009, 04:44:03 PM »

It was specifically stated on another forum that the Brabant project was not testing for L21, and that all those who are L21 by default are included in the P312 list.
It is also interesting to note that P312 outnumbers U106 so far in that project.

Yeah, from my point of view it is really a terrible shame they are not testing L21 in that project. My guess is they started planning and setting up for it before L21 was discovered (I'm talking about the practical date of discovery, not the early finding that no one seemed to recognize as important).

We might have really learned something from a truly under tested area.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 04:44:25 PM by rms2 » Logged

Mike Walsh
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« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2009, 08:14:42 PM »

It was specifically stated on another forum that the Brabant project was not testing for L21, and that all those who are L21 by default are included in the P312 list.
It is also interesting to note that P312 outnumbers U106 so far in that project.
Umm... that is interesting that P312 is outpacing U106.

Is there a web link or some document that has the haplotypes?  I think that would be really interesting to look at (if they tracked many STR's.)
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2009, 08:50:50 PM »

It was specifically stated on another forum that the Brabant project was not testing for L21, and that all those who are L21 by default are included in the P312 list.
It is also interesting to note that P312 outnumbers U106 so far in that project.
Umm... that is interesting that P312 is outpacing U106.

Is there a web link or some document that has the haplotypes?  I think that would be really interesting to look at (if they tracked many STR's.)
The best I can work out the STR results (they test the FTDNA 37 marker panel) are kept private unless the participants voluntarily agree to make them public. The SNP results have been posted on the DNA Forum.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2009, 09:48:47 PM »

I guess it's true that more attention is paid to those SNPs discovered first.
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vtilroe
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« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2009, 12:43:18 AM »

L21 (and L48) wasn't part of the YYC tree at the time the Brabant DNA applied for funding last year which is why they are not testing for it.  The request has been made to consider L-series testing when they have their next review and evaluation.

Apparently there are plans to extend the program beyond North & South Brabant to the rest of Belgium including Limburg, Luxembourg and French Flanders (and are currently recruiting sample donors), and from the sounds of it there will be opportunity for consumer-directed testing once the project is complete.  It is affiliated with the Genographic Project (with participant opt-in), so there's a chance that the option could be available to transfer samples to FTDNA from there.

Current results (including haplotypes) from the first phase will be published by end of 2009 or 2010, in book-form and CD-ROM.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2009, 12:43:40 AM by vtilroe » Logged

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rms2
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« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2009, 01:01:39 AM »

A new R-L21* just surfaced in the Benelux Project: Aten, kit N21969, Ysearch MF8GM, ancestry in the Netherlands.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/benelux/default.aspx?section=yresults

I am trying to recruit him for the R-L21 Plus Project, of course.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2009, 01:02:43 AM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2009, 10:07:59 AM »

A new R-L21* just surfaced in the Benelux Project: Aten, kit N21969, Ysearch MF8GM, ancestry in the Netherlands.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/benelux/default.aspx?section=yresults

I am trying to recruit him for the R-L21 Plus Project, of course.

Aten has joined. It turns out his ancestor came from Hoogkerk in Groningen in the Northeast, not too far off the North Sea coast and not too awful far from one of our other members, Wolken, whose ancestor came from Ostfriesland (in modern Niedersachsen) in Germany.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2009, 10:36:31 AM »

A new R-L21* just surfaced in the Benelux Project: Aten, kit N21969, Ysearch MF8GM, ancestry in the Netherlands.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/benelux/default.aspx?section=yresults

I am trying to recruit him for the R-L21 Plus Project, of course.

Aten has joined. It turns out his ancestor came from Hoogkerk in Groningen in the Northeast, not too far off the North Sea coast and not too awful far from one of our other members, Wolken, whose ancestor came from Ostfriesland (in modern Niedersachsen) in Germany.

You had two surprises this morning!
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rms2
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« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2009, 12:48:17 PM »

In his book, Celts and the Classical World (a great book, by the way), David Rankin discusses the notion of warriors taking up arms and fighting the sea, that is, actually rushing out into the waves and whacking at them, which the ancient Greeks said the Celts did, and which appears as a motif in Celtic legend and myth. Recall Cu Chulain, in his despair over killing his son, fighting the sea until he died.

Anyway, Rankin thinks this idea may have come from Celtic tribes that once lived along the North Sea coast and who left there because of the frequent inundations. That fits in with what Hubert wrote. He believed the Goidels came from the North Sea coast.

Just throwing that out there.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2009, 02:11:03 PM »

Man, what's cooler than fighting forces of nature? Reminds me of an archaic Pecos Bill.
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« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2009, 04:31:27 PM »

A new R-L21* just surfaced in the Benelux Project: Aten, kit N21969, Ysearch MF8GM, ancestry in the Netherlands.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/benelux/default.aspx?section=yresults

I am trying to recruit him for the R-L21 Plus Project, of course.

Aten has joined. It turns out his ancestor came from Hoogkerk in Groningen in the Northeast, not too far off the North Sea coast and not too awful far from one of our other members, Wolken, whose ancestor came from Ostfriesland (in modern Niedersachsen) in Germany.
I have long maintained, much to the ire of the Celtophiles, that some L21 entered England with the Anglo-Saxons (as well as later with the Vikings). I suspect continued testing will indeed establish the presence of L21 in the Anglo-Saxon homelands.
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rms2
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« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2009, 04:37:32 PM »

I have long maintained, much to the ire of the Celtophiles, that some L21 entered England with the Anglo-Saxons (as well as later with the Vikings). I suspect continued testing will indeed establish the presence of L21 in the Anglo-Saxon homelands.

It doesn't raise my ire. You could be right, and that would be fine with me.

I'm a bit of a Celtophile only because I suspect my y-dna line was Celtic (a notion I resisted for a long time), but I'm certainly not a Celtomaniac. :-)
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2009, 06:05:07 PM »

A new R-L21* just surfaced in the Benelux Project: Aten, kit N21969, Ysearch MF8GM, ancestry in the Netherlands.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/benelux/default.aspx?section=yresults

I am trying to recruit him for the R-L21 Plus Project, of course.

Aten has joined. It turns out his ancestor came from Hoogkerk in Groningen in the Northeast, not too far off the North Sea coast and not too awful far from one of our other members, Wolken, whose ancestor came from Ostfriesland (in modern Niedersachsen) in Germany.
I have long maintained, much to the ire of the Celtophiles, that some L21 entered England with the Anglo-Saxons (as well as later with the Vikings). I suspect continued testing will indeed establish the presence of L21 in the Anglo-Saxon homelands.
I agree with you and would be surprised if it isn't the case that some L21 won't be found with Anglo-Saxons and Scandinavians and other Germanic types.

I do have one slightly tangential point on this.  I think these Germanic L21's are likely to have originally been from some proto-Celtic type tribes, like a Beaker group, and then integrated or were somehow brought into Germanic speaking groups.  

The determining criteria, I think, on this last point is did L21+ form along the Danube (or some would say Italy) or did it form back in a PIE "homeland", be it the Caucasus, the Pontic Steppes, or Anatolia?  The further east it formed, the more likely it's possible inclusion with some R-U106 counterparts and I and R1a1 folks in Northern Europe.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2009, 06:29:15 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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GoldenHind
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« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2009, 08:29:02 PM »

A new R-L21* just surfaced in the Benelux Project: Aten, kit N21969, Ysearch MF8GM, ancestry in the Netherlands.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/benelux/default.aspx?section=yresults

I am trying to recruit him for the R-L21 Plus Project, of course.

Aten has joined. It turns out his ancestor came from Hoogkerk in Groningen in the Northeast, not too far off the North Sea coast and not too awful far from one of our other members, Wolken, whose ancestor came from Ostfriesland (in modern Niedersachsen) in Germany.
I have long maintained, much to the ire of the Celtophiles, that some L21 entered England with the Anglo-Saxons (as well as later with the Vikings). I suspect continued testing will indeed establish the presence of L21 in the Anglo-Saxon homelands.
I agree with you and would be surprised if it isn't the case that some L21 won't be found with Anglo-Saxons and Scandinavians and other Germanic types.

I do have one slightly tangential point on this.  I think these Germanic L21's are likely to have originally been from some proto-Celtic type tribes, like a Beaker group, and then integrated or were somehow brought into Germanic speaking groups.  

The determining criteria, I think, on this last point is did L21+ form along the Danube (or some would say Italy) or did it form back in a PIE "homeland", be it the Caucasus, the Pontic Steppes, or Anatolia?  The further east it formed, the more likely it's possible inclusion with some R-U106 counterparts and I and R1a1 folks in Northern Europe.

Your scenario wouldn't surprise me one bit.
And I agree that the key question is where and when some of the R1b subclades first arose and later expanded. If they happened earlier in the steppes or the Balkans we get entirely different results than if they occurred much later in (for example) the Rhineland.
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