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rms2
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« on: March 01, 2009, 11:52:03 AM »

We have a bit of a hole on the R-L21* Map in the southwest of Ireland. There are no L21+, for example, who report County Kerry as an ancestral home. If you draw a line from the southeast corner of Galway Bay straight on down to Shannon and all the way south to Kinsale, you'll find no L21+ placemarks west of it.

Perhaps that will change, but it is noticeable, given the amount of L21+ in the rest of Ireland.

Anyone care to comment? Any theories about this?
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« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2009, 02:44:36 AM »

There is Griffy/Griffin from the coast of County Clare--HUZFV.   
 
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« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2009, 10:27:17 AM »

These are pure speculations....

1) The Welsh-Normans didn't have that much influence in SW Ireland.  Perhaps they had some impact on the placement of R-L21*?  On the other hand, these invaders were very heavy in SE and Eastern Ireland.

2) The Danes supposedly built a bunch of hillforts there and we are NOT finding much R-L21* on the Jutland Peninsula, are we?
http://ireland-travel.suite101.com/article.cfm/the_stones_of_dingle_peninsula

3) This is the "Atlantic-facing" area of Ireland.  There isn't much R-L21* in Iberia, right?  Perhaps this where your ancient Iberian R1b1b2 guys went?

4) Perhaps all three of the above.



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« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2009, 01:13:13 PM »

There is Griffy/Griffin from the coast of County Clare--HUZFV.   
 
I know that Griffith is considered a Welsh surname.  Is Griffin a variation of Griffith?  (In Wales, Griffin has been established as the 65th most frequent Welsh surname)
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Jdean
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« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2009, 04:39:29 PM »

We have a bit of a hole on the R-L21* Map in the southwest of Ireland. There are no L21+, for example, who report County Kerry as an ancestral home. If you draw a line from the southeast corner of Galway Bay straight on down to Shannon and all the way south to Kinsale, you'll find no L21+ placemarks west of it.

Perhaps that will change, but it is noticeable, given the amount of L21+ in the rest of Ireland.

Anyone care to comment? Any theories about this?

Don't know if this is relevant, but I was looking at this map of hair and eye pigment the other day

http://tinyurl.com/d4vbbs
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rms2
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« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2009, 05:14:34 PM »

There is Griffy/Griffin from the coast of County Clare--HUZFV.   
 

He's on the R-L21* Map, east of the line I described in my original post.
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« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2009, 05:17:06 PM »

These are pure speculations....

1) The Welsh-Normans didn't have that much influence in SW Ireland.  Perhaps they had some impact on the placement of R-L21*?  On the other hand, these invaders were very heavy in SE and Eastern Ireland.

2) The Danes supposedly built a bunch of hillforts there and we are NOT finding much R-L21* on the Jutland Peninsula, are we?
http://ireland-travel.suite101.com/article.cfm/the_stones_of_dingle_peninsula

3) This is the "Atlantic-facing" area of Ireland.  There isn't much R-L21* in Iberia, right?  Perhaps this where your ancient Iberian R1b1b2 guys went?

4) Perhaps all three of the above.

We aren't finding much of anything in Denmark, thus far, except some R-U106. I hadn't heard there were Danes in SW Ireland.

I think #3 above is something to consider.
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« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2009, 05:18:56 PM »

We have a bit of a hole on the R-L21* Map in the southwest of Ireland. There are no L21+, for example, who report County Kerry as an ancestral home. If you draw a line from the southeast corner of Galway Bay straight on down to Shannon and all the way south to Kinsale, you'll find no L21+ placemarks west of it.

Perhaps that will change, but it is noticeable, given the amount of L21+ in the rest of Ireland.

Anyone care to comment? Any theories about this?

Don't know if this is relevant, but I was looking at this map of hair and eye pigment the other day

http://tinyurl.com/d4vbbs

I think I see what you are getting at. The southwestern part of Ireland differs from the rest.
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Jdean
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« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2009, 06:23:41 PM »

We have a bit of a hole on the R-L21* Map in the southwest of Ireland. There are no L21+, for example, who report County Kerry as an ancestral home. If you draw a line from the southeast corner of Galway Bay straight on down to Shannon and all the way south to Kinsale, you'll find no L21+ placemarks west of it.

Perhaps that will change, but it is noticeable, given the amount of L21+ in the rest of Ireland.

Anyone care to comment? Any theories about this?

Don't know if this is relevant, but I was looking at this map of hair and eye pigment the other day

http://tinyurl.com/d4vbbs

I think I see what you are getting at. The southwestern part of Ireland differs from the rest.

Yep, maybe a quinky dink
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rms2
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« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2009, 07:35:10 PM »

We have a bit of a hole on the R-L21* Map in the southwest of Ireland. There are no L21+, for example, who report County Kerry as an ancestral home. If you draw a line from the southeast corner of Galway Bay straight on down to Shannon and all the way south to Kinsale, you'll find no L21+ placemarks west of it.

Perhaps that will change, but it is noticeable, given the amount of L21+ in the rest of Ireland.

Anyone care to comment? Any theories about this?

Don't know if this is relevant, but I was looking at this map of hair and eye pigment the other day

http://tinyurl.com/d4vbbs

I think I see what you are getting at. The southwestern part of Ireland differs from the rest.

Yep, maybe a quinky dink

Maybe not. I was looking into this a bit. The tribe there in the southwest was the Iverni. I seem to remember that Hubert, in his book, History of the Celtic People, had something to say about them (but I cannot remember what).

Maybe they were mostly L21-, but we don't have any L21- results from the far southwest either.
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« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2009, 09:06:55 PM »

I think I figured out the problem, the placemark is on the town of Kilmurry in Co. Clare, where Griffin comes from is the civil parish of Kilmurry, the townland of Shandrum which is about one mile inland. 

From the Griffith's Valuation of the mid 19th century:
Griffin, Michael, Shandrum Village of Kilmurry, Killmurry, Clare

Seamus Heaney about Ireland "Every stony acre has a name".   So the names tend to get repeated. 

I did notice that L21* has mostly Irish names in Ireland but mostly Anglin names in the Borders where it predominates in Scotland.  So while it is not necessarily Gaelic, it could still be Celtic, names formed in the High Middle Ages in Scotland.  Some of the Irish names don't pan out with Irish matches either.  The two names in SE Ireland, Kehoe of Wexford and Brady of Wicklow but really from Cavan (my brother for full disclosure) match mostly Anglin, Border names.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland_in_the_High_Middle_Ages
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« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2009, 03:38:54 PM »

There is Griffy/Griffin from the coast of County Clare--HUZFV.   
 
I know that Griffith is considered a Welsh surname.  Is Griffin a variation of Griffith?  (In Wales, Griffin has been established as the 65th most frequent Welsh surname)
Out of curiousity, I looked it up. Griffin comes from a pet form for the Welsh Griffith. But here is the interesting thing: it was popular amongst the Bretons as well. Unless there is an Irish Gaelic equivalent, the name in Ireland would appear to have a Welsh or Breton origin.
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« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2009, 06:29:46 PM »

It can have an Irish origin also.  This is from Ancestry.com:

Griffin Name Meaning and History
Welsh: from a medieval Latinized form, Griffinus, of the Welsh personal name Gruffudd (see Griffith).
English: nickname for a fierce or dangerous person, from Middle English griffin ‘gryphon’ (from Latin gryphus, Greek gryps, of Assyrian origin).
Irish: Anglicized (part translated) form of Gaelic Ó Gríobhtha ‘descendant of Gríobhtha’, a personal name from gríobh ‘gryphon’.

To see the incidence, search by surname
http://www.failteromhat.com/griffiths.htm

Type in Griff and choose Clare, you will see all three spellings.  There are quite a few of them so the majority would have to be Irish.  They aren't just in Clare either, they are all over Munster.  Since it was a popular name in the middle ages it became a more common last name all over the British Isles.  There are quite a few on ysearch, many from the US South.  They are probably not of Irish origin.  He could be of any origin but is probably Irish.  With the Griffith's Valuation there was also the documenter with his input, who worked for the crown and who may have favored a spelling he was familiar with.  It was done in the decade following the famine. 



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eochaidh
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« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2009, 12:44:52 AM »

The one thing I find odd about this is that I believe that Kerry sent as many or more Famine Irish to the Americas as any County in Ireland. My Irish neighbourhood in San Francisco was loaded with Kerry folk. So, either they aren't having their DNA tested or they are L21- .

The post above about my name, Kehoe, matching mostly with Borders and "Anglin" names is correct, but I'm not sure what "Anglin" means. Actually my closest matches are 43/43, 25/25 and 32/37 with the name "Greenlee" which is said to have originated in Lanark, Scotland, but is found most often in County Armagh in the north of Ireland.

Thanks,  Miles
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« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2009, 10:36:01 AM »

Out of curiousity, I looked it up. Griffin comes from a pet form for the Welsh Griffith. But here is the interesting thing: it was popular amongst the Bretons as well. Unless there is an Irish Gaelic equivalent, the name in Ireland would appear to have a Welsh or Breton origin.
I find it interesting that the name is found among Bretons in French Brittany.  Of course, the conventional historical report is that Bretons are descendants of Britons leaving England during the Anglo-Saxon Invasions.   Britons supposedly were also pushed west into places like Wales, ultimately becoming the Welsh.  Some Britons probably stayed in England and integrated into the new post-Romano-Britain society.     

.... sounds like R-L21* territory.  Perhaps the Britons had a heavy R-L21* streak in them.
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« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2009, 03:32:09 PM »

Out of curiousity, I looked it up. Griffin comes from a pet form for the Welsh Griffith. But here is the interesting thing: it was popular amongst the Bretons as well. Unless there is an Irish Gaelic equivalent, the name in Ireland would appear to have a Welsh or Breton origin.
I find it interesting that the name is found among Bretons in French Brittany.  Of course, the conventional historical report is that Bretons are descendants of Britons leaving England during the Anglo-Saxon Invasions.   Britons supposedly were also pushed west into places like Wales, ultimately becoming the Welsh.  Some Britons probably stayed in England and integrated into the new post-Romano-Britain society.     

.... sounds like R-L21* territory.  Perhaps the Britons had a heavy R-L21* streak in them.
I think it is quite likely that there is a strong L21 presence in Wales. Unfortunately I can't find many deep clade tests from Wales. It is also disappointing that there doesn't even seem to be a Wales project at FTDNA.
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« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2009, 04:20:09 PM »

From Ancestry.com

Greenlee
English: habitational name from any of various minor places, for example in Staffordshire, so named from Old English grene ‘green’ + leah ‘woodland clearing’.

Greenlees
Scottish: habitational name from (East or West) Greenlees in Lanarkshire, named from Older Scots grene ‘green’ + ley(s) ‘piece of open country’, later ‘meadow’.
Many more Greenlees than Greenlee.  Many more in Scotland/England of either than in Ireland. 

Anglin is a  word for West Germanic.   Names are cultural more than gene based.  Most of the last names that formed in the Lowlands/Borders were from the Germanic languages.  There is a third language/dialect that you never hear about in that area, it's called Braid Scots.  Scots is not a Gaelic language, it diverged from English during the West Saxon period.  A version is spoken in Ulster. 
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Anglic-languages
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Image:Scotsdialects.png
Most of the L21* in Scotland comes from this area. 
Many of the ruling families can be found in the Ragman Rolls of the 13th century.  (tip: f=s, u=v)  Even though many of the names were Germanic, the French language was also in use at the time.   
http://www.electricscotland.com/history/articles/ragman_rolls.htm

I don't think my name Brady came from a Gaelic word, I think it came from the word that became broad in English, it was brade in Old Scots.  It's a descriptive word and habitational.  Bradley and Greenlee have the same ending.   Brade was also a personal name for someone who was stout.  Everybody thinks Brady is Irish, but the first one didn't show up in Ireland until the 13th century, despite Annals of the Four Masters claims.  Most of the Border last names were descriptive or habitational.   There was a de Brade family in Edinburgh in the 12th and 13th century, whose founder was a Flemish knight brought over by David I who liked Normans.  They had extensive land holdings and were sheriffs of Edinburgh for two generations.  There are Braid Hills outside Edinburgh.  I think someone from this area went to Ireland.  My definition of Irish is pre-Norman, at least as far as the y-chromosome is concerned which makes me a bit of a purist.  All my GGGPs were born there so I feel Irish, but some of the names are not: Weldon, Davis, Graydon and probably Brady. 

As far as Brittany is concerned, five out of the seven of the French in L21* are from historic Brittany.  None from Normandy that I could see.   Only two names were decipherable by Ancestry, both were Germanic/Norman.  There is a DeHart from Ireland which was probably DeHeardt which is Dutch.   

Yes, many Normans went to Wales, displacing the natives.  For five+ centuries they used patronymics so names are not as useful there.    There might be some name projects that would be helpful.  I looked up the HG *a1b and British Isles and there are only 200, seven that mention Wales.   So few get the deep clade testing done.   

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« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2009, 07:45:34 PM »

Slight correction: four of the seven French R-L21* come from within the bounds of historic old Brittany, not five.

Hamon's ancestor came from Bourgneuf-la-Forêt, which is outside the bounds of historic old Brittany, although not too far east of them.

Secher (ancestral name Sicher) makes it into old historic Brittany just barely and has a surname common in both Switzerland and Austria.
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« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2009, 07:50:50 PM »

The one thing I find odd about this is that I believe that Kerry sent as many or more Famine Irish to the Americas as any County in Ireland. My Irish neighbourhood in San Francisco was loaded with Kerry folk. So, either they aren't having their DNA tested or they are L21- .

The post above about my name, Kehoe, matching mostly with Borders and "Anglin" names is correct, but I'm not sure what "Anglin" means. Actually my closest matches are 43/43, 25/25 and 32/37 with the name "Greenlee" which is said to have originated in Lanark, Scotland, but is found most often in County Armagh in the north of Ireland.

Thanks,  Miles

It's a mystery to me, too, Miles, which is why I started this thread.

So, come on, you Co. Kerry men, order the L21 test!
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« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2009, 08:25:58 PM »


I don't think my name Brady came from a Gaelic word, I think it came from the word that became broad in English, it was brade in Old Scots.  It's a descriptive word and habitational.  Bradley and Greenlee have the same ending.   Brade was also a personal name for someone who was stout.  Everybody thinks Brady is Irish, but the first one didn't show up in Ireland until the 13th century, despite Annals of the Four Masters claims.  Most of the Border last names were descriptive or habitational.   There was a de Brade family in Edinburgh in the 12th and 13th century, whose founder was a Flemish knight brought over by David I who liked Normans.  They had extensive land holdings and were sheriffs of Edinburgh for two generations.  There are Braid Hills outside Edinburgh.  I think someone from this area went to Ireland.  My definition of Irish is pre-Norman, at least as far as the y-chromosome is concerned which makes me a bit of a purist.  All my GGGPs were born there so I feel Irish, but some of the names are not: Weldon, Davis, Graydon and probably Brady. 




The scholarly Oxford Dictionary of English Surnames confirms Brady is English, and lists several examples from England in the 12th and 13th centuries. It lists three different origins: 1) a nickname "broad-eye" (from Old English "brad eage"), or dweller by the broad island or broad enclosure.
It says the Scottish versions, based on the same Old English word, retained a different a different pronounciation in Middle English in northern England and Scotland, and is usually spelled Braidie or Brade.
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« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2009, 07:24:25 PM »

Thanks for the Oxford Dictionary reference.  They might be making it more complicated than it is for the Irish group.   The y ending is probably just the English substitute for aigh, which is the commonplace Gaelic genitive ending.  There are British Bradys however, a John Brady was provost of Trinity College Kirk, a royal collegiate church, of Edinburgh around 1500.
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« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2009, 10:29:49 AM »

We have a bit of a hole on the R-L21* Map in the southwest of Ireland. There are no L21+, for example, who report County Kerry as an ancestral home. If you draw a line from the southeast corner of Galway Bay straight on down to Shannon and all the way south to Kinsale, you'll find no L21+ placemarks west of it.

Perhaps that will change, but it is noticeable, given the amount of L21+ in the rest of Ireland.

Anyone care to comment? Any theories about this?

Don't know if this is relevant, but I was looking at this map of hair and eye pigment the other day

http://tinyurl.com/d4vbbs

I think I see what you are getting at. The southwestern part of Ireland differs from the rest.

Yep, maybe a quinky dink

Maybe not. I was looking into this a bit. The tribe there in the southwest was the Iverni. I seem to remember that Hubert, in his book, History of the Celtic People, had something to say about them (but I cannot remember what).

Maybe they were mostly L21-, but we don't have any L21- results from the far southwest either.

Yes, Hubert has quite a lot to say about the Iverni, which population he has occupying the southwest of Ireland.  I don't have that book, but do have his "Rise of the Celts"

here's a brief section
"Among the rent-paying tribes (note, relates to his previos discussion of tribes pre-dating the arrival and conquest of the Goidels) one of the largest seems to have been that of the Erainn, who apparently gave their name to Ireland, which the Goidels continued to call by it....."The Erainn were the Iverni. Ptolemy places the people of the (greek letters) Iovervoi in the south-west of Ireland.  Now this is just where the Erainn had their principal centre in the time of the oldest epics...The list of rent-paying peoples places the Erainn, or rather the Sen-Erainn, the old and authentic Iuerni, in the district of Luachair, covering the north of Kerry and the adjacent parts of Limerick and Cork; here stood Teamhair Tara, that is Tara of the Erainn, which had been the chief burying-ground and meeting-plance of the Erainnbefore it became one of the religious centres of Munster.  At the beginning of our era the Erainn of Munster were subject to the dynasty of Eoganachta of Cashel, a thoroughly Celtic line.  But there were also Erainn in Connacht and Ulster, where they appear as scattered remnants of an ancient population, driven by invaders into corners where they make a stand."  (on pp 197-8 of my 2002 Dover reprint).
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« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2009, 11:12:02 AM »

Yes, Hubert has quite a lot to say about the Iverni, which population he has occupying the southwest of Ireland.  I don't have that book, but do have his "Rise of the Celts"

here's a brief section
"Among the rent-paying tribes (note, relates to his previos discussion of tribes pre-dating the arrival and conquest of the Goidels) one of the largest seems to have been that of the Erainn, who apparently gave their name to Ireland, which the Goidels continued to call by it....."The Erainn were the Iverni. Ptolemy places the people of the (greek letters) Iovervoi in the south-west of Ireland.  Now this is just where the Erainn had their principal centre in the time of the oldest epics...The list of rent-paying peoples places the Erainn, or rather the Sen-Erainn, the old and authentic Iuerni, in the district of Luachair, covering the north of Kerry and the adjacent parts of Limerick and Cork; here stood Teamhair Tara, that is Tara of the Erainn, which had been the chief burying-ground and meeting-plance of the Erainnbefore it became one of the religious centres of Munster.  At the beginning of our era the Erainn of Munster were subject to the dynasty of Eoganachta of Cashel, a thoroughly Celtic line.  But there were also Erainn in Connacht and Ulster, where they appear as scattered remnants of an ancient population, driven by invaders into corners where they make a stand."  (on pp 197-8 of my 2002 Dover reprint).


That's it. Now I remember.

Glad to see you here at World Families, Rick.

I guess time will tell if there is any y-dna difference between the old territory of the Iverni or Erainn and the rest of Ireland. So far it's terra incognita.

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« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2009, 01:27:22 PM »

Well, we may be on the verge of putting a couple of placemarks into Kerry, after all. A couple of L21+ Kerry folk joined this morning. I'm just waiting on confirmation that they are M222-.

The more the merrier (or the Kerrier?)!
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« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2009, 07:01:33 PM »

Yes, Hubert has quite a lot to say about the Iverni, which population he has occupying the southwest of Ireland.  I don't have that book, but do have his "Rise of the Celts"

here's a brief section
"Among the rent-paying tribes (note, relates to his previos discussion of tribes pre-dating the arrival and conquest of the Goidels) one of the largest seems to have been that of the Erainn, who apparently gave their name to Ireland, which the Goidels continued to call by it....."The Erainn were the Iverni. Ptolemy places the people of the (greek letters) Iovervoi in the south-west of Ireland.  Now this is just where the Erainn had their principal centre in the time of the oldest epics...The list of rent-paying peoples places the Erainn, or rather the Sen-Erainn, the old and authentic Iuerni, in the district of Luachair, covering the north of Kerry and the adjacent parts of Limerick and Cork; here stood Teamhair Tara, that is Tara of the Erainn, which had been the chief burying-ground and meeting-plance of the Erainnbefore it became one of the religious centres of Munster.  At the beginning of our era the Erainn of Munster were subject to the dynasty of Eoganachta of Cashel, a thoroughly Celtic line.  But there were also Erainn in Connacht and Ulster, where they appear as scattered remnants of an ancient population, driven by invaders into corners where they make a stand."  (on pp 197-8 of my 2002 Dover reprint).


That's it. Now I remember.

Glad to see you here at World Families, Rick.

I guess time will tell if there is any y-dna difference between the old territory of the Iverni or Erainn and the rest of Ireland. So far it's terra incognita.



Thanks, Rich.  It seems like a good place. 
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